Interview Transcript

• Ok, so before we kind of get really started, I wanted to get your sense of really the story. How you found exboyfriend recovery, everything that’s happened to you because you have a really interesting story. It seems like out of everyone, my wife worked with you a lot and tried to help you a lot and it seems like you had a lot of success.

• Yes.

• So, let’s start at the beginning. Start at the beginning from the break up, to finding the website, to sort of getting him back to where you are now.

• ok, 00:40 it was the time that he’d left. He said that was it, we were done, never come back, we just don’t work together, I made him miserable and I was this horrible controlling person he wouldn’t want in his life. I cannot stop him from seeing his friends, doing things. So, with a big group, really big fight and that he left, and he took everything with him.

• So, you’re living together at this point?

• We were yeah. We have been together for 10 years, we’ve got 2 kids. We lived together mainly 8 years.

• but you’re not married right?

• Nope, we’re not married.

• Ok, so Imagine going forward, that’s something you probably do want right?

• Yeah, we’ll I’m only 28 and he just turned 29.

• Only 28? I thought you’re 21.

• No, I wish I was. I think we’re still a bit too young to get married in our 20s. It’s more of like now but I thought about that sort of stuff with him.

• So, you’re 28 and he’s what?

• 29.

• 29,alright. Actually in my opinion–well, in the States. I don’t know what it is in the UK where you are but in the States, like the average marrying age is growing up but I think it’s like– for a woman, it’s like 27. So, it seems like you guys are right around that mark or maybe that’s something–I guess we can kind of get into it later but anyways before–I have a tendency to interrupt. I apologize for that.

• It’s fine. It’s totally fine. When he’s gone, I thought right that’s fine. I don’t want to be with him. He was out of the house all the time. He’s going to the gym 4 times a week, going to play football with his friends once a week and then complain that he never saw his friends but yeah, you don’t see your family either. I was like you work all the time, and then when you’re not working, you’re in the gym or you’re playing a football game and he couldn’t see my side 02:45 stay at home mom. It was still exhausting, especially with the lack of sleep that I was getting.

• Yeah, it’s the most exhausting job in the world absolutely.

• He just couldn’t get it at all. He was like you just stay at home all day. You just sit on your phone on Facebook. I was like, no. I ran around all day. I barely sleep. I clean. I was like who cleans your clothes, who cooks your food, who takes care of the children? But then the break up has been good because he had bear it on his own and he’s gotten–

• He had to realize–

• 03:14 -today. I just looked and I’ve gone, yes and that’s my job 6 days a week and it was like, he was just not getting it still. He was like, “Yeah, but you’re they’re mom.” I was like, yeah and you’re the dad. It was so frustrating when we first broke up. Anyway, I’ve had an apology for all that.

• It’s really interesting that you brought that up actually because I remember there was like this story that went viral a few years ago about a mom –two parents who got into this fight and the woman, she just left. She just left for like a few days and the husband was there to take care of the kids and he had such a hard time with it. He ended up begging for her back. It’s like interesting, something similar kind of happened in your case.

• Yeah, completely. It was like he dropped them off about 6 pm and he would be, “I’m so tired. You won’t believe how they’ve been today. They’re so full on. They just don’t listen to me.” I was like, yeah they’re 04:20 what do you want them to do? It was like reality hit him that I actually don’t get to sit down on my phone all day. Fairy don’t clean my house.

• I’m a stay at home. Jen and I we both stay at home but you know, I work a lot of the time but I’m also there to see that she’s not sitting around just on her phone the entire time. She’s just constantly just chasing the baby around. I get alone with the baby for 1 hour and I’m just like, “Jen, don’t leave me again. That’s so hard.” Because just one hour, it’s too much, you know. I think a lot of men, they have preconceived notions that aren’t true.

• Yeah, that being  a mom is easy.

• So, anyways continue your story. Like I said, I keep interrupting.

• It’s fine. About a week after the break up I thought, I don’t actually want this. I need to change. I know it’s wrong. I’ve explained everything on myself, I begged, I pleaded, I said I’d change, I’d be different. I’d leave him alone if he was going to do his own thing. Basically accepted the blame that the break up is all my fault which is wrong because well, it was wrong.

• I think at some–

• And then I found your website through a Google search.

• Oh, well that’s good. To stop you, I think in some cases, some women should take blame but I think in your particular case, i don’t think you’re the guilty party at all. You’re the one that like–I think he’s starting to realize that too.

• Well, that’s what happened yesterday. I find it quite corny but it’s quite sweet at the same time. He wrote a letter of everything. Let  me read it, I was like that is completely like quite cringy but it’s more to that– I wouldn’t interrupt him and that I was not–so, that I could actually read it around 06:25. He’s taken how he was and he’s going out 5 evening in the week was way too much for a family man, everything.

• That’s good. So, you find the website through your Google search, what happened next?

• I went into some of the information, reading about what is on there. Like there was brief information about the no contact rule. So, I was like, ok, I’ll try that because we were texting all day, everyday but it would always lead to an argument. We’d have like text wars until in the middle of the night. It was getting me nowhere.

• I’ve been there. I know what that’s like.

• So, I did the quiz. At the end of it, I had like–I’ve got pretty good chance on getting him back. Ok, fine, put my email in, all that sort of thing.

• Turned out to be pretty accurate right?

• Yes, it was. Read some of the articles, and then I know it’s from my email that you sent me an email to watch the live–

• Oh, the webinar, yeah, the coaching.

• Yeah, that’s the one. So, I went onto that and I watched that and then there was the offer of buying the pro and the Facebook page..

• Yeah, the Facebook group was included.

• Yes, and I did that and I read the exboyfriend recovery from cover to cover that night. Had a look on the Facebook, you didn’t really post anything straight away and then started making my plan with the holy trinity bit and what I need to do, what need to change and my biggest thing was my house. I don’t know if you remember, I have post natal anxiety after having my son.

• I totally–not that I say like I’ve been through it but I’ve seen how difficult it is and not a lot of men–I think they’re just maybe numb to it and they don’t really pay attention to it but I remember you thinking that that was a factor in your break up right?

• Yeah, it just changed me. I was always on edge. Everything worried me everything was going to go wrong, everything was a problem. I was so scared to leave the baby. I was worried there’s something wrong with him. Everything was going wrong.

  Like everything in my head is like something is going to happen to my little baby and my whole world was, I was like I can’t leave the house, he needs to be here. It just caused problems because he wants to go and do stuff. It affected my eldest as well because he’s only three and I was too scared to go to the park.

  I was too scared to go shopping. I needed somebody with me all the time. Like I needed to be babied myself. I know it was 10:21  and he told to go and get help and I would say no because they will think I’m a bad mother and the typical stuff.

• I think there’s a lot of women who go through  it too. So, in a weird way, I imagine the Facebook group kind of helped probably a little bit with it too because you kind of got–get some of those anxieties out in a maybe safer environment but I’m not going to speak for you. I guess I’ll let you. The floor is yours.

• I think when I first told my story, I’m pretty sure it was Jen who answered me first and said like, are you doing the no contact, are you doing this?And I said, yes, I read the book. I know I’m doing it. I know I’ve got it planned in my head and then I joined the gym.

• So, I stopped the recording. If you don’t know, Shauna here is a mother of 2 and it seems like her young son’s program was over and wanted to ask her help. So, obviously, don’t hold it against her if there’s like  a little gap there. This is a legitimate mother here who’s–it seems to me like the odds was almost stacked against you but somehow you persevered because it’s so difficult with kids.

• He had a lot of patience out of me.

• Yeah but anyways we were talking about the first time  you posted on facebook, Jen was asking you about the no contact rule. You said you kind of knew exactly what you wanted to do and you joined the gym.

• Yes, I went to the gym and so far I’ve lost 4 stone.

• So, what is that in pounds?

• 56 pounds.

• Wow props! That  is great! Wow!

• I’m starting to feel a lot more confident in the way I am.

• I imagine this you keep losing more and more weight, you’ll get more and more confident and it seems also like the dynamic  here have changed a little bit in how you view yourself. Like you had said originally, like you felt, like you took a lot of the blame for the break up when now it seems like it’s kind of turning. You’re kind of looking at things a little bit more how they are.

• Yes, that’s what happened in the last week where I’ve changed. I’ve gone actually, “No, you’re wrong.” I’ve done nothing wrong. I’ve been the mother. I’ve been the carer, I’ve been bill payer. I’ve been everything and he’s just been like the third child and I was like, “No, thank you”

• Yeah, so in other words, you’ve realized your own value and ironically–or not ironically. It’s not. I know this but men like that and are attracted to that but we’ll get into that later I guess. Continue your story, I keep interrupting.

• That’s ok.

• That’s ok we got another visitor here. That’s ok.

• 14:06 I’m sorry.

• The joys of parenthood.

• I know.

• It’s ok. You’re donig fine. There’s no rush. You take your time.

• So, I’ve done the gym. I’m trying to just back track a bit.

• 50 pounds you’ve lost and then we were talking about how you kind gained some value back but mostly-

• Yes, it’s more about myself now.

• You’ve essentially become empowered. You’re a lot more confident with yourself. I guess fast forward to what you did to get him back.

• Well, to get to him back, I think it was the jealousy inside of him that sort of clicked.

• Yeah, so, let’s talk about that.

• I was supposed to go on a date.

• The two of you were supposed to go on a date.

• No. He heard that I had a date.

• Oh he caught wind that you were going to go on a date. I’m sorry.

• That’s fine. So, he was obviously panicked by that because he just didn’t leave me alone. When he had the boys, he was texting me constantly. My phone was going off every 10, 15 minutes and obviously I’m in no contact. So, I’m like, “Well, I’m not answering that. I’m not answering that one.” It was never something that I needed to answer and then I remember he sent one thing that our eldest was sick. So, he know me well enough, and he knows the mother instinct, I replied within milliseconds.

• Was the eldest really sick or was it just a tactic to get you to respond?

• He had a runny nose and a cough.

• Which could have just had been the normal–for a child, they’re always getting runny nose. It could have just been, he made that.

• He made it sound like he was not well.

• Right, like broken a leg or something.

• Yes, obviously me answering that straight away, he was like, “Oh, so your phone does work.” I was like, “Ok. so, tell me, what’s wrong with him?” and he said, “Oh, it’s ok. Now, he’s gone to sleep.” I was like, why text me then? It was a pretty obvious attempt to get me to talk to him. So, I said bye, ok, fine. Let me on how he gets on overnight. I’ll speak to him in the morning. I didn’t answer him again and that was about 9 pm and he texted me again 5 times. I was like I am not answering you. You are so persistent of talk to me, talk to me and don’t know if you remember the massive message that I posted on the group.

• Give me some context. Why don’t you go ahead and tell us about it.

• He said he was sorry for everything he had done.He was really upset that it has all gone wrong. He lost his family. He lost me. I don’t mean so much to him. He took me for granted. If i would give him another chance, he’d be so different. All he wanted was me and the kids together, to go and see the world.

• He said exactly what you wanted to hear.

• He said exactly what I wanted to hear. Thinking should I answer that one? So, I posted to the group. I asked for advice and everybody said no. He had not said he wanted to get back, leave it. I did obviously leave it and I left it.

• You’re really good at taking advice by the way. One of the best I’ve seen.

• I am. I can listen.

• It’s not just listening. It’s about implementation because that’s what people–listening is not the problem with women on the group but I think it’s more of execution. Like you’ll tell them to do something and they won’t do it. That’s not the problem with you.

• The best one was Jen told me told me to send the re-break up text.

• Yes, I was going to ask you about this. She was telling me about this.

• And I did it and even though 18:27  you just think, “Don’t do this.” I did it and it was amazing.

• So, if you don’t know what that is. It’s something new that actually–it’s Jen’s brainchild. I can’t take credit for it but it’s basically, even though Shauna and her ex are already broken up and they weren’t in a committed relationship, Shauna essentially rebroke up.

  She sent a text that it made it seem like she was breaking up with her ex. It seems weird. Like you’re thinking, “Why would that work? We’re not even in a relationship together?” But what happened Shauna? Tell them what happened.

• He blew my phone up. He was like don’t leave me alone. He was sorry, he wanted to see me, and he wanted to talk nearly every other day. The phone calls rang me and rang me and I was still only like 5 or 6 days into no contact and it was like, “Oh dear. I don’t know what to do here.”

  But what I found out was that 2 weeks after we broke up he was texting another girl. So, for me, that was like you’re moving on clearly. Why can’t I? And he was like, I’m not moving on. I’m only talking to her. Yeah, ok fine but you’re eventually going to meet up with her aren’t you? “I don’t know. I have no intention of meeting her right now. “She’s like 3 1/2 hours away from where I live which will be about 4 hours on where he lives.

  And I remember breaking down, i was so upset that he was talking to the other girl. He’d answer on Facebook. He didn’t have any of the social media. He didn’t understand it but he adder her on Facebook and they were like tagging each other in different things and it was getting to me so much. So I posted to the group and they said it just  a rebound. It’s not going to work.

  And then he met her though work on a course and they just stayed in touch. So, 20:21 all the coursemate have met up again. So, he’d obviously had seen her physically but he said he has already told her, he didn’t want anything and then she 20:32 him. She was texting him, calling him. Basically like what you tell is not to do. She kind of ruined it for herself I guess because he’s told her to leave him alone.

• Yeah, it could be a little too much for men sometimes when a woman comes on to them too much.

• Especially when it’s a new girl and I was like if she’s bragged you then she won’t leave you alone. He’s like no exactly. There has been a lot of mind games in between. I broke no contact twice which is bad of me because I know the effect is less each time.

• Well, I’m glad that you listened.

• Because he always says things. He always said things that made it looked like we’re going to get back together.

• It seems like you had broken it with good reason–the one of the ways you can break the no contact rule is if you think like you’re going to get a commitment out of it. It seems like he sort of strung you along to make you–

• Very much yes.

• What i think maybe happened was he understood that in order to get you to respond to him, he was going to do the carrot and stick routine. He was going to have to kind of lead you out with a temptation of commitment and that worked on you enough to have him do it a couple of times but it seems like you got the last laugh when you sort of did that re-break up text.

• Yes, that’s when I started my third no contact. I just said that and that was the last you heard from me but it was only 7 days again but that was when he came to me and said I want to get back with you.

• It had to have been in his mind. I think maybe that was just what pushed him over the edge to finally take action.

• Well, he’s explained a few things to me today. When he first said it and I first told Jen, “Ok, he’s back. Well, we’re not back but we’re going to work on things and we’re going to be together.” It was April the 2nd and by April the 5th, he’s like, “Oh, I’m not sure yet. I don’t want to rush things. I’m really worried it’s going to go wrong.” So, I flipped. I didn’t flipped at him. I waited until he left. I just unloaded onto the Facebook page. I just literally just spilled out all this vomit on it like about everything I hated about him.

• That’s ok.

• I was like he’s playing mind games. I’m done. I said I’m moving on.

• It’s part of the allure of the Facebook group too right? It’s like a safe place where you know you could let that out and not get judged because you are around people who are dealing–going through the exact same thing.

• Yes. I think the best part of my recovery was the Facebook group because all the girls can talk to you through different problems that you’re having and how you’re feeling and in low days, you can make a Facebook state and post it to the group and no one in the real world knows anything. All they say is you’re getting on your life. My friends and family have been very, “Oh, just move on. Just get over it.” I was like, “No. I can’t do that.” 23:45 but not just wake up one day and hey oh, I’m done.

• Yeah, you’ve invested a lot into as well. Let me ask you, your frame of mind, your mindset right now, where are you at? Obviously you want him back and it seems like you’ve taken him back but is it?

• I’ve got him.

• I know you’ve gotten him back but I guess going forward, you obviously have to be having some concerns about the history repeating itself right?

• Yes, I’m really, really scared of him just to go back in his old ways.

• Because it seems like when you were talking earlier, I was writing some notes when you were talking, just so I can remember because when you get into this conversations with people often, it’s really easy to forget things. but you had said that this is the third time he’s left you. So, he’s done this exact thing two other times.

• Yes, he did first time in November at the end of the months. It went for two weeks and then he came back. He was there for Christmas and he left for a week again and then he came back and then on January 18th, he walked out and it felt real. Every other time that he’s leaving, he’d only take a little bit of stuff with him. They were like clothes enough for a couple of weeks. In January, he took everything. It was like, “Woah, ok.”

• You were thinking like, “He’s done it before but he’s always left his stuff. So, it’s like all of his belongings are still there but this is it. He’s taking it all the way. What am I going to do?’

• The one in January. It was emotional. It was angry. He’s stayed behind for 2 hours packing everything and it was like oh, ok.

• That’s a tough thing to go through for anyone. I think it’s just made more complicated by the fact that there’s children involved. They’re his biological children. You were together for so long. I mean 10 years is a huge. I mean marriages sometimes don’t even last that long. So, you were together for  a long time but can I ask you a personal question. You had mentioned that you joined a gym, you lost 50 lbs, during your relationship with him, were you a little self conscious about your weight?

• Yeah but it had nothing to do with him. It was just me who struggled to lose the baby after getting pregnant.

• Ok, so, you joined the gym, you lost the weight, are you back to where you were before? Are you looking better than you did?

• Not yet. No, I’m not there yet.

• Ok, so, what I’m thinking is like going forward for you, I don’t think it’s more about getting him back. Like I think you can get him back. I think you know enough to, if anything bad happens again, sort of the protocols and what to do. I think it’s more about defending your territory, defending the relationship. Making sure it survives.

  It seems to me like this man, every once in a while, needs to get reminded his place and he needs to get reminded how difficult your life can be if you’re watching children. But you also have to consistently create an environment where he looks at you as more valuable than him because I think if you can create a situation, you can create an environment where he’s always thinking that you’re better than him then he’s always going to treat you the way you deserve to be treated. I know it sounds weird.

  There maybe some therapist that can come in and tell me how wrong I am but in my experience, I think women get treated better when men don’t think they’re as good as like they think the woman is better than them. I think the more you can do things to you sear that into his memory or sear that into his brain about how great of a girlfriend, potential wife you are, the better.

• That’s the plan. I’m not stopping going to the gym. Whereas before, I can do anything, it was all about what he wanted. So, I’ve told him I’m not stopping. Listen, my life stays as it is now. You basically fit in to my schedule now.

• That kind of creates, you will have to throw him a bone every once in a while though. You will have to do nice things for him.

• Oh no. I’m not going to be a complete nightmare.

• Ok.

• I mean he asked if I was free on Friday which is supposed to be the night that I go on a 5k run and I just said like, “Well, I have plans but what’s the matter?” and he said, “I would like to cook you dinner and we’d watch a film.” So, I was like ok. Fine ok. I can skip a 5k run for that.

• It’s really interesting. You were talking about you made that statement. Like, I’m not stopping anything. My life stays the way it is. I’m a 100% behind you but I also remember one of the break ups I went through where I didn’t break up with the girl necessarily but we had this huge blow up fight. You know, we were both pretty stubborn people and she stuck to her guns and I stuck to my guns and it was just sort of a stand off on who would change their ways and eventually I submitted and changed and then I remember her saying the exact same thing to me.

  I’m not stopping. I’m not changing anything. I remember being a little resentful by the fact that I had to do everything on her schedule. So, I’m glad that you’re a little bit flexible when it comes to changing your schedule around to doing nice things every once in a while because I know she was so stubborn and she was so unwilling to be flexible on certain things. That it really caused me to break up with her because of that. But I think you’re smart enough to know that you have to be flexible every once in a while and do nice things. I’m glad to hear that. I’m just kind of prewarning you that some men can take it that way if you go to the extreme.

• Yeah, I won’t be that bad. He just needs to know that I’m not stopping everything.

• Oh, Shauna that’s ok. I think that just kind of–it’s hilarious. I even want to leave that in because I want people to connect with your story. It’s so hard but if you’re a mom, it is possible to do the things that I recommend and it seems like you’re pretty happy and empowered from the break up. It seems like you came out the other end more positive.

• Well, that’s the thing I learned. I said this in the group. I’ve never lived alone as in I’ve been in charge of the house.  This is the first time of being by myself. I moved from my mom’s house straight in with him. So, I’ve always had an adult who was there for me. So, when he left it was like, “Oh, I’m the adult, ok.” It  has  31:38 as well. It has moved me a lot stronger. I used to be too scared to stay in the house by myself. That’s how ridiculous I used to be.

• Well, I think maybe going forward to it, it gives you definitely confidence knowing that even if the worst thing in the world happens, you could get through it because I imagined, when you went through that break up originally you were thinking, “Oh god, this is the worst thing in the world. I can’t survive this.” but you can and you did. I’m glad that life better for you because if anyone deserves it, you do.

  Two kids, one is very, very young still. One is obviously still awake right now. You’re just sort of the do it all woman. You’re amazing. I can’t believe you’re juggling this interview while juggling a baby in the other room, while juggling a 4 year old is watching a program constantly and asking you questions constantly. It’s pretty impressive.

• I had just renovated my kitchen all by myself.

• And you’ve renovated your kitchen. See you can do everything. I should hire you.

• I don’t he likes that me. I actually asked a question, I don’t think I got an answer. Because I’m very– I do everything myself. I don’t depend on him to do anything. I’m the DIY in the house. I decorate, I just build kitchen cupboards and everything. It was like, did that made him feel less of a man?

• Yeah, I think it probably does. Every once in while, let him do something. I get it.

• But he can’t put up the shelf.

• Just know going in that that’s the case but let him have some moments of heroism every once in a while because even if you know you can do it better, let him do it the wrong way and fixed it when he’s not looking. So, you can at least sort of build his ego up. I’m sure my wife does that to me.

• Ok. He saw the kitchen today. He haven’t seen it. He was taking aback. He was “You’ve done this all by yourself?” I was like, “Yeah.”

• Hopefully it looks good.

• Oh, yeah. I’m absolutely in love with it. I still have to finish painting but the kitchen cupboards were in, the sink  is working, the oven is, it’s like nothing has gone wrong.

• That’s really great to hear. Like I said just every once in a while, throw him a bone and make sure it’s not something big. It can be something small to sort of build his confidence up because if he truly is as useless as you say, make sure it’s not something important like putting a cupboard up or putting a wall or something up. Start small and build up.

• Ok.

• Anymore questions? I know it’s kind of weird because you’ve got your–I don’t want to get any time away from you and your son  there but if you have any questions you want to ask, I’m here.

• It’s more about how do I not argue with him because well, I’m assuming he’s going to come back  and be 35:00. He’s very black and white.

• Argumentative? There’s no gray area, ok. Well, in that case, let me ask you for an example of what your arguments are like. Can you give an example of an argument that two of you have in the past? We don’t have to go into graphic details but just give me something to go off. So, that I can guage his frame of mind.

• Ok, the last argument I had with him was he went to the gym Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Friday he went football with the guys then Saturday, he decided that on his day off, he was going to go to the cinema with his guy friends because he hadn’t seen them all week. I was like, “Hang on. No.” You spend it with the family, it’s your day off.” He just didn’t get it. He was like, “I see you everyday after work when I come home.” I was like No, you go to the gym then you go home. The boys are in bed. It just escalated from that. He was like I’m going to the cinema with my guy friends, I haven’t seen them all week. That sucked. It was like—

• Black or white, I see. Ok, well, in that particular case. I think you’re very intuitive and the fact that you realized that it’s not like his personality will change. He can make all the promises in the world but generally in my experience, people don’t change unless something massive happens to them. So, in order for him, in order for your arguments to go a little bit smoothly, I think in that case, he’s avoiding taking care of the children or seeing the children because it is a hard job. It can be tiring. I can kind of sympathize with him a little bit because there’s times when Jen wants me to be with the family and I come with the family but sometimes I’ll sit there and think, “Oh man, I wish out working or I wish I was doing this.”

  So, I think in your case and this is what Jen does to me sometimes and it always sets me straight is, making him watch the kids and you having a hard line. Because if you can put him through action and let him experience what you’re experiencing every single day, he will have a different way of looking at things. He will replace his values so to speak because guilt is an amazing thing. And you need to probably use it if you want some of the arguments to change in your favor a little bit because what’s happening is he’s got no guilt when he goes out with his guy friends to watch a movie for example. So, in your mind, you’re thinking that’s not fair because I’m here having to watch the kids, that’s such a tough job. You’re out with your friends having fun. That’s not fair.

  Maybe in the moment, there’s nothing you can do insight massive change within him but maybe going forward consistently leave the children in his care and make him watch them. So, he can understand the value of what you are doing and then going forward, he will start to feel guilty any time he makes this crazy statements where he’s going to go out and have fun with his friends. He’ll think in the back of his mind, “Oh wait. No, That’s bad because I’m leaving her.” If he cares about you, he will feel guilt because he’s leaving you in charge of the kids. Not that that’s hard for you or anything. You’re clearly born to do it.

  You’re amazing at what you do. You’re an amazing mother and everything like that but he’ll feel guilty because he’s not helping out. So, I think in order to create the massive change with the arguments that you want, I don’t think necessarily, it’s a function getting the arguments to stop. I’m sorry. I don’t think it’s the function of not having arguments. I think arguments are just 39:06 . They’re going to happen. I think it’s sort of how can you get stupid arguments like that to stop because you’re clearly in the right and he’s clearly on the wrong from where I’m sitting. What do you think?

• Yeah, completely. That’s why I get 39:21 with him. It’s like can you not see where I’m coming from? And he just no, he needs his guy time.

• I can understand, there’s the need for guy time but I think what–

• And so do I but 39:37 gym days.

• Yes, I agree with you and I think Shauna, it’s a function with him. Look at what you did when you took a hard stance and you left the kids in his care. He started replacing the value. He started saying I can’t believe how hard that is. It kind of reshapes his perspectives at looking at things because from the moment your children were born, you’re a good mother. You were the one taking the helm, you were the one taking care of them, you were the one doing all of the work. He wasn’t doing much work was he?

• No. He hasn’t done a night shift ever.

• Ok, so I have done night shifts before. I did it for a month straight and it broke me down so much that I said, “Jennifer, I cannot do this anymore. It’s killing me.” That is how difficult they are. I get it. I think what you– he never placed the value on what you’re doing watching those children because he never had to experience it. Talking about it and experiencing it are two completely different things. Once he finally got a taste of how difficult it was, he started replacing some of the value.

  So, I think a lot of the arguments you have over stuff like that is simply a function of him truly not understanding where you’re coming from out of his own laziness and so in order to nip that in the bud, you need to give him responsibility because if he’s a good dad and I’m hoping he is, he will step up and try to do the best he can then but he’ll also gain understanding into how difficult it is and he’ll also start to have those guilty feelings when he goes with his friends and he’ll think, “I shouldn’t be doing this. I’m leaving her alone with the kids. That’s so hard.”

  You’re a parent,  So, you know slowly but surely as the kids grow up they become a little bit more independent but it’s a slow process. It’s not like you wake up the next day and all of a sudden they’re self sufficient. It doesn’t work that way. You have to constantly guide their hand and he’s never had to do that once has he?

• No.

• Well, until the break up when you dropped them off at his house one time.

• Until the break up, he’s never been on his own with them. I’ve always been here.

• To me it’s a function of–you  hit the nail in the head. He just doesn’t understand where you’re coming from but I think it’s important to understand why he doesn’t understand where you’re coming from. It’s because he’s never had to do it before. And so giving him responsibility to do it, can actually work in your favor so he can understand. Because  a lot of fights happen when the two parties don’t understand or don’t communicate properly.

  So, a lot of the fights I have with my wife can get solved pretty quickly if I have an understanding of her points. If I can look at her points and not point at them and say, “That’s wrong. That’s not true.” then we’re going to have a big blow up fight but if I can sit back and she’s bringing a problem to me and I can sit back and look at what she’s saying and understand what she’s saying, often times, children cause fights because there can be two different sides on how things should be done but often time when it comes to children and my wife, she does the heavy lifting and I understand that because I have been through it and have done before.

  I have placed a value on it to understand when she speaks up about Lily, our child, I defer to her no matter what. I think what you need to do is get him to do that because right now, we’re doing this interview but you’re technically on a night shift right now on this very moment. The interview has been interrupted 2 or 3 times by your child. He’s not around. In the perfect world, you’d be doing this interview and he would be watching the child right now right?

• Yeah, exactly yeah.

• So, I think what you need to do is get him to place the value on it and it’s not going to happen over night but I would say that would nip out all of the fights you have especially if most of your fights are over things like that. Were they?

• Yes, fair enough basically. Where he’s not 50-50 in the relationship.

• To me, that means you are a fair person because sometimes I hear people are fighting over stupid stuff but what you’re fighting over is actually not stupid. I think it’s fair.

• The most ridiculous argument I’ve ever had with him was I wanted to go for  a bath because I’ve had a long day. Ok fine, he’s been at work. I understand but I did cook for him. He can sit in the table have food. Reads whatever he reads on his phone about sports and then I went, do you mind if I go for a bath? The baby is in bed. I’ve taken care of other things, you just need to look after the 4 year old. He sat the 4 year old up to the bathroom than to sit with him.

• Ah so that caused a fight between the two of you.

• I just said, are you kidding me? I was like, can I not just get a bath where I’m by myself? It was just so that I could have that half an hour to an hour just on my own.

• Boy, after hearing that, I just want to buy my wife flowers.

• It was like the most ridiculous argument I’ve ever had in my whole life. Arguing about what a request I want to have  bath by myself.

• What we call that is selfishness. He’s selfish. He doesn’t want to watch the child because he wants to do what he wants to do. So, he’s going to pawn the child off on you. So, you’ll watch the child. So, he could do what he wants to do.

• Well, all he wants to do is play on the xbox. It was like, 45:33 floor? 45:39 that I just wanted to go to a bath myself.

• I think a lot of that just have to do because he’s never had –and maybe like you said–I’m not saying anything bad against you but maybe you’ve been a little scared to like leave him alone with kids. Obviously you–maybe in the beginning you said you had some sort of anxiety after. So, I imagine you’re afraid to leave the kids alone with him and you were wanting to–

• I’m afraid to leave the kids with anybody.

• Ok so you had sort of a superhero syndrome where you thought you could do it all but you’re one person. You can’t do everything, especially when there’s two kids. They outnumber you. You need help and I think that probably–like I said, you just need to make him understand the value of what you’re doing because if he just experiences it, it’s a whole different ball game than you telling him about it. They’re two separate things. If you can tell me, “Yeah, having kids is hard, watching them is hard.” I’ll say, “Yeah, I agree but I won’t actually know what you’re talking about until I actually experience it myself.” I’ve done the night shifts before.

  So, I know how difficult they can be. Jen does a night shift almost every single day which is why I’m going to get her flowers today.  But we’ve been lucky, our child sleeps pretty good through the night now but she didn’t always used to and it would keep both of us up at night. We both worry but your ex or current boyfriend now, just doesn’t have the value. He doesn’t understand how difficult that is because he’s never had anyone to hold him accountable.

  So, my advice is if you want to stop the fights, it’s not going to be like an overnight thing but if you want something effective that will help him understand your side of things when you have arguments, give him some more responsibility. Even if you’re there, you be on your phone. You let him watch. You do those things. So, he can understand how hard it is.

• Ok.

• Anything else I can help you with?

• No, I don’t think so.  I’m not going to leave the group because I do enjoy talking to them.

• Please don’t We love you there.

• It’s just unbelievable. It’s been great. I can’t believe I’ve got him back. I really did think like that was it. It was done. Thank you to you and Jen really.

• Well, thank Jen. It seems like she did most of the help for you. So, I’ll be sure to give her a big hug from you and tell her thank you and we’ll keep in touch because if this guy gives you any lip, you send him my way and I’ll set him straight for you.

• 48:45 how to be a man.

• Right, alright take care. Hopefully your 4 year old goes to sleep soon.

• Well, it’s 8 pm so yes, it’s bed time.

• Bed time alright. Thanks for taking the time. I really, really appreciate it Shauna.

• Thank you.

• Thanks bye.