By Chris Seiter

Published on August 5th, 2023

I had the pleasure of interview Lee a few days ago and I was blown away at her approach to her breakup.

Not only did she really buy in to putting the focus on herself (as opposed to her ex) but she absolutely KILLLED IT during the texting phase.

Check out some of the things we talked about in our interview,

  • The beginning of the breakup. 0:02
  • Getting back into the game after a breakup. 3:35
  • No contact for 45 days. 7:41
  • How she got into the coaching world. 11:57
  • Coffee grinders and coffee. 17:12
  • The importance of the internal part of the process. 23:40
  • Not cool things that were not cool. 28:54
  • There’s no such thing as an innocent cup of coffee. 33:40
  • The most important epiphany she had. 39:23

Interview Transcript

Chris Seiter 00:02
All right, today we have a another success story. We have Lee here who is going to tell us all about her situation. And specifically, she wanted me to highlight the importance of the work she did during the texting phase. So I’m eager to get into that. But thank you so much for coming on and doing this.

Lee 00:17
Oh, thanks for having me. Actually, thank you very much for creating this program. I purchased. Probably all of the programs I could think of five, perhaps in addition to yours, so

Chris Seiter 00:31
yeah, you were saying that, you know, the big ones.

Lee 00:33
The big hit heavy hitters,

Chris Seiter 00:36
right? You always you always I find it’s like sometimes people, you know, they just jive with different things better than than others. But I’m, I’m blessed to have you here. So, again, thank you for doing this. Why don’t you take us back to the beginning of men? I don’t know, if you want to take take it from like the beginning of the relationship or the beginning of the breakup. One. I’ll just leave that to you.

Lee 01:02
So I had met my significant other online. We had a long texting fees. About three months before we met in person. The first time around, we call that the first relationship. And then we met, it was like a fireworks type, relationship and person. Things were really heavy. I had had a surgery, he was there for me. He met my son, he was in my family. He started living with me, but he still had his own apartment, which is a very avoidant thing to do.

Chris Seiter 01:46
So did you guys move in together? Like, way too quickly? Like how long did that take to unfold? Exactly?

Lee 01:53
Well, so we’re in our mid 40s, he’s a year and a half younger than me. So I mean, I would say about 45 minutes, 45

Chris Seiter 02:01
minutes, 45 minutes. That’s the

Lee 02:05
relationship. He was there No, five months. And it was, um, you know, he was here all the time. But he wasn’t like, contributing as much. And we had problems, but I was afraid to broach the topics. Um, he had sort of done this. He had had kind of some money relationships with his, his ex wife and I have a son. So it’s like, I have a co parent relationship that I also needed to kind of work out the kinks with. And that sort of, I think kind of gave him some

Chris Seiter 02:41
pause difficulty. Yeah, I mean, especially so you mentioned that he might have been dismissive avoidant. How did he handle that? Okay, sure. Okay. Well, so he, so how long did it take him to actually start running away? And what was his reasoning during the breakup?

Lee 03:01
So the first time I think he technically ran away, he helped his ex wife move across the country, and I had a very anxious reaction to it and, and pushed him away. So out of like a protest behavior.

Chris Seiter 03:16
I mean, you could easily argue that’s not anxious behavior. That’s normal behavior, but okay.

Lee 03:22
Yeah, no. Well, yeah, I mean, I had some. Yeah, I mean, that is normal behavior. I was like, What is this? Yeah, there were things that were chipping away at my security throughout the relationship. And that had kind of driven me toward, like, these points of feeling very anxious. In the so when then November, I think, so we had met in June, was when he first broke up with me. And I, like begged and learned him back. Second time, was in December, and I had purchased this program and another one, and I had read that other one, and then I had gotten him back. And then in April 29 of the next year, I so we had been together for 11 months, we’d had a couple blowouts and one of which I had like a kind of like a meltdown in public and I had lost a lot of emotional control. So two weeks after that I came home from work and all his stuff was gone.

Chris Seiter 04:39
No explanation at all just like the actual ghosting there in person for you to see. Right. Okay. So I just work texted, I

Lee 04:54
netted or you know, I was like, are you why are you doing this to us like what the hell Oh, and what am I gonna say to my son? And like, you’ve left a family basically, like you became a part of a family, and then you left it. So like, what’s up with that? When, and I saw him and brought all of his stuff. And he said that he never wanted to see me again. And he never wants to talk to me again. He was like, smoothing out his clothes. Like, he’s obviously still attracted to me. You know? Yeah.

Chris Seiter 05:26
I’m very nervous in this moment.

Lee 05:29
Yeah. And I did not bring any peace. Probably what I should have done in retrospect, is just not say anything. I can give myself some time to calm down. But I did not. And I kind of like went after that situation to the very anxious thing, which is like, what are you doing? What are you doing? What are you doing? But knowing that, you know, he had already made up his mind. And so

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Chris Seiter 05:59
he’s left you, you approach him at his work very anxiously. You do everything basically, you’re not supposed to do. I’m assuming this does not work out well, for you at first.

Lee 06:10
No, it doesn’t. He just pushes me away. And then yeah, I’m like, Well, can we talk about this in seven days, you know, this is like, an from another program that I read, it’s like, okay, now you’re doing damage control, you know, you’re trying to like, reestablish trust. And ultimately, what I didn’t realize is that, like, both of our nervous systems were on like, super high alert. And like, I really should have just backed off. And let it kind of smooth over because I had heard through his roommate that he was really hurting in May. And if I had done the, the break, and like, let myself calm down and not not and just let him do it, probably things would have gone a different course. However, what I feel this program did was forced me to look at myself with like, the ungettable girl content, doing the Trinity. Just sort of like applying these things. Because it’s very easy to just like, sort of like, focus everything out on them and say, Oh, well, this is them. And that’s their fault. And that’s what they did wrong. But at some point, I had an epiphany of like, oh, this is what I’ve been doing wrong. So

Chris Seiter 07:36
at this point, when you’re focusing on this stuff, have you already implemented like the No Contact Rule.

Lee 07:41
So I went into the No Contact Rule. And then, about 12 days after I sent like a goodbye, text, and vacated with music. I just start the No Contact Rule all over again.

Chris Seiter 07:57
Alright, so you made it 12 days, you sent the way you said, like, you communicate with like, some sort of music video or something like that. So I sent like a Yo, La Tengo song that was very sad. And like, you know, where are your emotions on your sleeve? Like?

Lee 08:13
Yeah, you know, thank you so much. And I hope you find all the happiness you’ve ever wanted, okay. And I found like, myself on the anniversary of our, like, the, the day that he told me, he loved me, which was the third of July, I found myself calling or no, the second of July I like, called him and totally just was like, I’m doing great, and

Chris Seiter 08:43
overcorrecting is the correct term there. You know, overcorrecting, trying to be like, Okay, and how does that go? How does that how does that approach work?

Lee 08:54
Horribly, he’s just like, I can’t be with you. And, you know, he told me that he couldn’t see me and that, you know, I was being silly by thinking he didn’t love me. But he just, you know, and he doesn’t have any social media. There’s no way I can really keep in contact with him. There’s no way he can really keep tabs on me. He’s kind of atypical in that way. So yeah, that was a big thing for me. So I’m like, Alright, no contact for 45 days.

Chris Seiter 09:29
So you’ve had maybe a couple of false starts during no contact? Yeah. Is this the one that kind of like sticks?

Lee 09:37
Yes. Okay. So then, you know, I do the things and I look at me and I go to therapy and I look at myself and my anxious behavior. I try and pick apart him trying to figure out a is this is am I in a narcissistic situation like, is this you know, and I kind of like distill that it wasn’t which was good. I kind of ruled out that he didn’t have any mood disorders or anything like that. He is a slightly neurodivergent or both have like tinges of ADHD I have a diagnosis of ADHD. So yeah, me too. So it’s like, I have some workarounds. But you know, the things changes, you know, as you know, and with a kid, it’s like, oh, but yeah, I spent a lot of time being pretty sorry for myself and feeling like the victim, and then, you know, having to re empower myself and feel better about myself and surround myself with people that understood. So the community was super helpful, because I wasn’t killing the resources that were around me as far as friendships with constant, like conversation about him. Yeah. So the battle battle buddy aspect of this program was super helpful. And, you know, I met some friends. And I was able to utilize that resource. And that was super helpful. And then, I guess what, like, you know, working this program in the sense of, like, keeping with the battle buddies keeping, it was like an exercise in self control. Like, I have to wait until I have the ability to talk about things clearly and or articulate, like, what it is that I need from this community, because a I might not get a response, or be, you know, like, Is this necessary, and like, I have to wait until x time to think about it. So it’s like, I can’t like ruminate as much. So it was like, sort of that was like, very integral to like, creating sort of a self control. modality. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Seiter 11:58
I mean, you’re, you’re, I’m assuming you’re doing the Trinity work. And you mentioned earlier that you that was something you had started before, maybe the false start happened.

Lee 12:10
Yeah, I got a personal trainer, got new therapists started therapy right. Now, some career goals, they switched. You know, I started interviewing for different careers

Chris Seiter 12:20
like so. I mean, like, theoretically, you’re doing everything you’re supposed to be doing during this no contact period. You mentioned you were doing like a 45. Day one. Did you actually make it all the way through the 45? days? Yes. Okay. Now we get to the fun part. Yeah. Phase,

Lee 12:39
I had gone through professional coaching through your group, gotcha. I had created. I was kind of on the fence. I’m like, do I want to do this? I don’t know. Um, so I talked to the coach. And I’m like, Okay, I got a call from a place that we had gone to like to get IVs. And apparently, he had forgotten that it was on AutoPay. And I had like, a couple months of membership, or three months or whatever membership left. And they call to remind me and saying that, you know, he had let’s just, you know, calm David. So it’s like David had left you. Three months of IV membership, he doesn’t want you to pay it back, if you you know, but he has cancelled it, and so on and so forth. And so I kind of utilize that is like, Thank you for the IVs I was hoping that at one point, we could talk because I had really broken and that was one of the things I talked about in coaching is I had really broken and, like his trust in me by going to his place of work by nagging by, like those things kind of would make anybody feel unsafe. You know? Yeah.

Chris Seiter 14:01
I mean, it also builds, this is how she’ll react from now on, like, that’s the perception he’s gonna have. So that’s, like, the headwind you’re going to be facing when you try to, and as you’re correctly, assuming, he’s a little wary at first.

Lee 14:19
So then he said, Well, why would we need to have contact? And I said, Okay, well, we and this was, you know, something I came back to the group with, and I had gotten a response from the coach, saying, well say that you had had a relationship where you relied on each other for a while, but you know, you respect his point of view. And you’ll give him some time to think about it. So I use that we and I left it alone for two weeks. And then I went in with the exact like, texting phase model. Yeah, you know, like Question The homes or distress sort of thing, right? And the first one was about so he sent in, like, he’s a weightlifting enthusiast and are a power lifter. So it was like, hey, I need help about pre workout. And it was like a slew of information.

Chris Seiter 15:20
Okay, so you hit his interest, right on the mark. Too much, maybe.

Lee 15:27
I was like, wait a minute, like it’s positive response. And like, I get like, 300 let you know. That’s a positive response. Like, are you doing tide theory? I’m like, Well, I just got a tidal wave. So I did create it. That’s hilarious. So, um, you know, then I had, you know, I tried to cut them off with like, something like, Oh, I’m doing this you know what I was I was inquiring about getting sailing lessons. And then the next time I had asked him about a weightlifting shoes. Well, that was that was just like intense. I mean, I got all the different fabrics and the different heel lifts and why you need this shoe for this thing and that and I was just like,

Chris Seiter 16:22
a really loves his weightlifting, right and a lot. Yeah, well, and

Lee 16:26
also, he just feels like, he’s done so much research like it. He’s like, the nice guy who’s like, Oh, I’ll help any disseminates information. But sometimes it can be a little overbearing, because that’s a wonder if

Chris Seiter 16:38
it’s also maybe like, he put so much work into the research. And like, I don’t want to hurt his feelings, but no one really cares. So it’s his way of like, saying, like, well, look how much research I put into it. I’m willing to put it out there.

Lee 16:53
Right now. It’s true. It’s like the weirdest thing, like, and I’m like, Okay, thank you, you know. And then

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Chris Seiter 17:04
what’s amazing is that he initially gives you the cold shoulder on that first thing like what, like, we shouldn’t be talking and then you bam, you hit his interest. And it’s like, boom, like, just so message after message. And what

Lee 17:17
I didn’t know is that at this time, he had met somebody, and was kind of dating them. So I was like, like, just sort of

Chris Seiter 17:29
wonder if that lowered the barrier. Maybe like, well, I’ve already moved on to this new person. I don’t have to worry about a potential get back together with Lee.

Lee 17:41
That’s interesting. Yeah. So then, I just kept on that. And then it was he’s really into coffee. So it’s like coffee grinders. And it seems so benign, right. And like, was

Chris Seiter 18:01
there a question mark there, just like coffee grinders?

Lee 18:05
I was going to need, or I was like, Can I get your professional opinion or something like that? Yeah. And he was, and I’m like, well, it’s about coffee, David. So like, come on, in because he’s like, Well, I don’t know about professional. Yeah, you’re professional coffee drinker, I think and. And it was just like, here’s this do you want to do you want to like manual grinder? Do you want this grinder and it was just like, wow, like, again, and I was taking interest in the things that he had always been interested in. So it’s like, okay, it took me a little bit to kind of bridge into, like, normal conversation.

Chris Seiter 18:49
And do you think, ah,

Lee 18:52
probably, so that was we started on August 31 was the first text two weeks after then we started doing that, like every 10 days. I was kind of getting

Chris Seiter 19:03
you’re really slow. I mean, it was doing this. Got it.

Lee 19:07
And it would take him sometimes 24 hours to respond. He would like drop off

Chris Seiter 19:12
it’s good to know to have like

Lee 19:15

Chris Seiter 19:16
you’re pretty confident he was a dismissive avoidant.

Lee 19:19
So we had done many tests after. Okay, when we got back together. Yeah. And so that’s the thing like he had so when and what’s interesting is like, after we got back together, his and I, like there were things about me because my confidence had changed. And I had moved into secure attachment in the beginning, and we had gone to couples therapy when in the beginning, but like, it came out like he was actually kind of anxious when we got back together. I thought that the getting back together process brought out some of his anxious attachment style, and fears sort of like because The Keys disorganized like he was true, it seemed like he, because I kind of feel like we change over the continuum of our lives.

Chris Seiter 20:07
Yep. That’s 100% Correct. So like,

Lee 20:11
I think that, you know, given some of the things that had happened in his childhood, and the way that he was raised in relationships, and then also, because his marriage, I mean, was like, 20 years long, they’ve got, yeah,

Chris Seiter 20:23
that’s definitely gonna have an impact on your attachment style, especially towards the end.

Lee 20:28
And they were like, together for a really long time. So that created that was a secure part of his life. And then, you know, as II moved into single life, that’s when he sort of got back into that avoidance, you know, sort of style, because when we first met, he really put me at ease. It wasn’t like, he wasn’t there would disappear for days, you know. So yeah, but

Chris Seiter 20:54
before we were recording, so sorry, anyone listening to this? You didn’t, you didn’t hear this, we were talking about your attachment style. And you said you got professional checked out. And you’re fearful attachment style. And you were talking about how he kind of maybe fell in love with the avoidance side of that. So I’m actually just wondering if, if that sort of was the allure when you first met? You know, and

Lee 21:22
I think it could have been, I think it was that. And the fact that we had, we had a lot of things in common that a lot of people find, like, we have a very esoteric taste in music that has a term or like it just an eclectic taste. Oh, yeah.

Chris Seiter 21:41
I mean, you see, I mean, like, we like, Yeah, little text, the fun text message,

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Lee 21:47
like, be listened to, like Darkwave. And like, shoegaze, all the stuff that like when we were like, I was younger, in the 90s. You know, it was kind of like, not everybody liked. And now it’s kind of gets resurgence and things and we’re like, wow, like, wow, but it, it goes beyond that. Like we were both raised in st part of the country, when we moved to another part of the country. There were same motivations behind that. So there were a lot of like similarities that we had. And in the beginning, like, I was just like,

Chris Seiter 22:23
like, then somewhere somewhere along the way that changes throughout your relationship to where you’re like, desperate to keep it together. Yeah, at the end, which is really interesting to look at maybe your attachment style throughout that relationship. You might have started out, maybe a little bit avoidant, potentially. But then slowly, but surely, which is the case with the fearful avoidant side, you know, bouncing back and forth. Did you ever feel like you were bouncing back and forth a lot throughout the relationship where you go from anxious to went into anxious, avoidant?

Lee 22:55
Yes. And then I mean, reading and learning about protests behaviors and what they were, and just sort of understanding that I wasn’t like trying to make them jealous and trying, you know, certain things like that. Really, just, that’s a protest behavior. That’s just something that I learned to sort of irritate his nervous system and kind of get a response in a certain way and how it doesn’t work if that switch isn’t turned on. Yeah. So yeah, it was it’s this has been like a super fascinating journey. For me.

Chris Seiter 23:40
I like that you’re so self aware of it. Because most of the people I talk to, they only focus on the x, x x x, and they kind of neglect the internal stuff. And that internal stuff, I think, is the most important part of the entire process.

Lee 23:54
Well, because this program isn’t about the X. It isn’t about you, it’s about it’s about me, and when that light got turned on, which wasn’t immediately, like it took a good that 45 days of my nervous system kind of M that was what I found interesting about, like, there, there is a scientific approach to the way that you have, like things laid out and also in the way that the materials are laid out. It’s like for that anxious brain. It’s just like, like, you go through it, and just get it but what I realized is that anxious brain did not learn a lot and I had to go back and reread them. Because we’re being the information, you know, wants to go into the texting phase, like right? It’s like no, and then when you’re in it, you’re dying. You’re dying. You’re bound it’s been

Chris Seiter 24:58
going on, it’s like Yeah, yeah, you know, there’s like a couple of things to bring up here. The first thing I would say is like, psychologically or I guess, neuro chemically, what you’re what the No Contact is meant to do is lower your cortisol levels. So they’re a little bit more normal. But I think the mistake a lot of people make is they’re doing things that constantly make them stressed and anxious and obsessed about the X. And that keeps those cortisol levels elevated. And the longer they stay lol, I think there was like a study I found that said, like, if your cortisol levels stay in this constant state of elevation, normally, it should take like three to four hours for them to come back down to normal. But if they are constantly used, it can take six months for them to come back down to normal. This is why I think so many people struggle in the post breakup period, because they’re just checking their exit. No. That’s interesting, though, because Alright, so the number one thing I noticed that people do is they check their exes, social media accounts, boom, cortisol level, like, what are they doing? Your ex didn’t have social media, you didn’t have any choice to find.

Lee 26:02
That’s all I have. Spotify was like, you know, like, combing the Spotify plates hilarious or things that he added? Like, what does that mean, you know, and then I realized, like, he had taken me off a joint playlist, and I was like, Oh, my God, you know, because the only thing we had

Chris Seiter 26:21
been the best thing for you, though. Right? Is it probably helped this cortisol levels come down without you realizing it.

Lee 26:28
Interestingly enough, the first time we actually talked on the phone was six months to the day of us breaking up.

Chris Seiter 26:37
Interesting. That’s kind

Lee 26:39
of that’s kind of interesting. Well, how were

Chris Seiter 26:41
you feeling during it, though? So obviously go through this period of no texts, no contact and texting for a long period of time. But like when you get to that phone call phase? How are you feeling? Do you feel like, do you still want him back at that point? Are you just kind of like, okay, whatever happens happens?

Lee 26:57
Well, and that’s that, is it like, I did the 45 days. And then after the two weeks, I kind of was like, Okay, do I want him back?

Chris Seiter 27:08
Yep. That’s the secret sauce of everything.

Lee 27:11
I I’m a wonderful person. And there’s no way that a wonderful person is going to be single forever. So. And that was like, that was really it. That was when I knew I was like, I had to be willing to let him go. And let go of the idea of what he was and who he was. Because if I maintained holding on to that idea of who he was, and what he was, I don’t think that we could have continued this second relationship. Because I wouldn’t have been able to forgive him. Because I was I was abandoned in my mind. He abandoned that little he

Chris Seiter 27:50
literally did abandon you showed up to your house and his stuff was gone. That’s a definition of abandonment. Yeah.

Lee 27:57
And like, my, that I have friends that are like, Well, I’m not going to do David anymore. I’m not going to be friends with him anymore. I don’t want him to show up. At you know, x y party. And, you know, and this is to this day, because of that action, you know, and it’s like, I think he’s proven himself. But, you know, it’s not just me in my life, you know, and I get those are the people I exhausted. Yeah, you know, and it’s like, so that was why I felt like this. This program, like was super helpful and integral to my own personal healing, because it propelled me on a journey of trying to figure out why I was a accepting substandard treatment from another individual. Because in combing through my memories, I realized that there were things that weren’t normal like him taking his ex wife back

Chris Seiter 28:54
to not cool. Not cool. Yeah, knuckle right.

Lee 28:58
Things that were not cool. Were coming to the fore. And I was like, oh, oh, yeah, he wasn’t perfect. He wasn’t this person that I like, you know, yeah,

Chris Seiter 29:09
he kind of had them on a pedestal, I think, especially in that post breakup period, where you’re desperate to get them back. Everything they do is on a pedestal on spot and kind of bringing them back down to your level.

Lee 29:18
And it’s like, oh, he’s, you know, he’s the only one and blah, blah, blah. And it’s like, no, there’s no granted, it is hard to meet people. And I found that out because I did start dating. But he needed to also start dating too, because that’s what made him miss me, you know, and these texts that I was sending him, reminding him that I knew who he was. I like that, ya know, like, who he really was, like, the things that were really important to him. And I know that it sounds like, oh, well, it’s just weightlifting and coffee, but it’s more than that. Because like the moment you know,

Chris Seiter 29:57
it’s empathy. Like you you’re having a conversation with someone, I think you might have also benefited from the fact that he was dating other people. And maybe they’re not asking the type of questions that is going is like nurturing for the soul. Whereas you pop in and you can know exactly because you studied him, and you were with him for a long time, and you knew him for a long time. I mean, that’s an interesting take on it. I liked that actually, a lot. A lot of times when I’m, I’m doing these interviews, I’m always looking for ways to frame things for the people who haven’t bought in yet. Because what you basically said is, once I outgrew my ex, that’s when I started to see the snowball effect really start occurring. But it’s, it’s really about convincing people to outgrow their ex, because so many people do not want to outgrow their ex, they just want to fix the problem get their ex back. So a lot of it is hearing from people like you that I think helps the light bulbs go off for them.

Lee 30:59
I did not I was so resistant.

Chris Seiter 31:03
I didn’t know scary, there’s no guarantee. Yeah, there’s like,

Lee 31:06
yeah, I didn’t want to do it. I didn’t. And not only that, it’s like I’m older. So I was like, oh, there’s nobody out there, you know, and it’s like that, you know, but that’s also not true. And, you know, it’s

Chris Seiter 31:23
just your, I think anxious fears talking, you know, that voice in the back of your head that knows exactly what to say to like, really got you.

Lee 31:34
Everyone has that. And then, you know, there was like, there are a few things that I knew when I had him. And it was like I had had these conversations with him about coffee about, you know, his top interests, I asked him about other things and got sort of like, sort of brush off. Like I asked about nonfiction books that he’s very literate. And like, I kind of got like a little on that. And then I asked about workout playlists, like have you heard anything new. And once he started sending me music, I knew that I like

Chris Seiter 32:22
that was like your inside way of talking to no other people might have had that you connected on that level.

Lee 32:28
Right? And so then once and then we had a conversation and then we ended up having like a FaceTime. And he saw my face and he started to tear up. And I was like, okay, you know, like, this is really happening. Like, I’m getting my ex back. I’m getting my ex back, you know what I mean? Like in my mind, on myself down. So it’s like, alright, just because you don’t cut your chickens before they like you kind of calm down and like, and like slowly smooth and smooth as fast. You know, I’m just like, Alright, all the things the outages are like running through my

Chris Seiter 33:13
that’s funny.

Lee 33:14
But it’s like once I had gotten the music and gotten like the things that were like the flowing of communication that was probably like mid October. And then, you know, the FaceTime conversation was six months of the day, but like we had talked on the phone. And then it was like after that probably excuse me with the likes and things. We had met in person, he had asked me for a cup of coffee. And I remember him telling me, you know, there’s there’s no such thing as an innocent cup of coffee. And so

Chris Seiter 33:51
you’re like, No, there’s, there’s What are you talking about? You know,

Lee 33:55
like no cups of coffee. And but no. It was

Chris Seiter 34:03
unfortunately, fortunately for you, it was not an innocent cup of coffee.

Lee 34:08
And what I found like a month or No, I want the month after we are a couple of weeks. Yeah, it was a couple of weeks after we had been seeing each other. He had put in his calendar because he was putting something else in his calendar that that day that we met for coffee. It was new anniversary.

Chris Seiter 34:28
Oh, that’s how you knew, huh? Yeah.

Lee 34:32
So but I knew because when we first met in person, he’d asked me to be back together. So it’s like I’m skipping the value chain in terms of like the conversation.

Chris Seiter 34:41
I mean, he’s skipping it for you. You’re not really skipping it. Right.

Lee 34:46
Right. And so then I’m like, Well, you know, I’m wondering what am I supposed to do mice to slow them down so that resistance again. And that emotional control on my part was like this Did you know he did? So?

Chris Seiter 35:01
did? Did you slow him down? Yeah. Yeah, I did interesting how that correlates with when you first met how avoidant you were specifically.

Lee 35:12
Yeah. And then being physically intimate I was, I said, we have to go see a couples therapist before that happens.

Chris Seiter 35:19
Smart. Very, very smart. I’ve interviewed a lot of success stories, who it’s like half and half for them. Sometimes they sleep together too soon, sometimes they do what you did, it always seems to work out quicker for the people who have that boundary, as opposed to the people who kind of end up in this friends and benefits limbo for a

Lee 35:40
while. You know, I have baggage, I have a child. And so you

Chris Seiter 35:48
have to think for more than just you. Right. And I know, it’s not just you.

Lee 35:53
And then you know, to be back in my life, he had to be back into my son’s life. And because I have him 50% of the time, ya know, that also imposes a boundary, because I would not hang out with him with my son for X amount of time. And then I had to make sure that my ex husband was okay. Because a lot of our safety in, you know, my son and my safety in the way that my son felt about himself, I had to discuss that with him. I had to discuss how I felt about myself in that situation with my son,

Chris Seiter 36:37
but I love that these are all hoops that you’re making David, jump through, you know, and he’s doing it. He’s jumping through time after time.

Lee 36:47
And he’s doing it and he’s proving it. And he’s, you know, when I went when we went to therapy is when she said, You know, I could see his anxious side, because he is clearly to you. And he wants to please you, he’s just, but it’s like, is that anxious. And now we’re in a very secure attachment. But it took us a little bit to kind of like work out the kinks and to shake them through. And it also took a lot for me to say, these are the things that I want, these are the things that I don’t want, because I would there are times that I was just, you could steamroll over all of my needs and wants. And that’s just not who I am today, I was in a relationship with it with a narcissist, who talked himself out of therapy for seven years at one point in my 20s. And it pretty much ruined my sense of self and set me up for, you know, accepting, you know, substandard treatment from the nicest people who hadn’t figured themselves out. And then I tried to save them and things of that nature. And yeah, yeah, no, you know, and since it’s like, I have this, this history, this long history of life, you know, I’m 46. So it’s like, I see me and what I’ve done wrong, and what I can do better. And I don’t think I could have seen it without this particular program. All of the other programs. Thank you. I mean, and I work in Psych. I do this, like, I deal with people with all these different problems, that see things that aren’t there, you know, what I mean, and have been deeply, deeply, deeply hurt from childhood and have these like, injuries and to their psyche. And it’s just like, I have to choose as a human being the power I give somebody else, and how they affect me. And if you can, like help somebody realize that they have that power within themselves to make themselves change, to make themselves see something to not accept bad things and look for the good because there were good things in that relationship. I had done a great job of mucking a lot of good things up. And he did too.

Chris Seiter 39:26
I think, would you say looking back at the entire experience, the most important epiphany for you was realizing I just need to get myself right first before I try to get him back.

Lee 39:38
Absolutely. Because I could not I was just going to head back. Because here’s the thing, they do always come back in my history. I mean, and I’m not joking. I’m talking 20 years down the line. They come back, they find you on Facebook, they find you on Instagram, like they’ll say Search for you. The they always come back. They do men and women. You know, I’ve also been guilty of that, you know, where I like, tag somebody after, you know, 15 years? And it’s like, yeah, they do. So I had to make sure that I was right. Because if I’m not right within myself, then I may be making the wrong decision. And I’m trying to learn somebody back into my life who may not be well suited for me, or my life or my son.

Chris Seiter 40:34
I mean, it seems like you did an amazing job.

Lee 40:36
Yeah, I mean, we live we’re living together. Now.

Chris Seiter 40:40
I would argue it’s not the program that did that. I would argue it’s you. The program was just like, hey, do this. You’re the one that actually had to do the work.

Lee 40:46
Agreed. But I mean, like, I don’t think I would have had a systematic approach to it.

Chris Seiter 40:54
Yeah. I mean, we just basically gave you the the bumpers to the bowling lane. Right, exactly.

Lee 40:59
Like, and, I mean, I did the work. I’ve been, you know, and that’s the thing like, was it Elizabeth Gilbert, who says, I haven’t met anybody who wanted to change who wasn’t sick of their own BS, you know, and it’s like, I had to really get sick of myself and sick of the crap that I was putting myself through. And that’s really what I had to remember, I’m not a victim here. I allowed some of these things to happen. There are bad people out there that do bad things to people.

Chris Seiter 41:27
And unfortunately, it seems like you did encounter one of those bad people in that seven year relationship. And that might have ruined your perception of other relationships.

Lee 41:39
Absolutely going forward. Absolutely. Dan,

Chris Seiter 41:44
thank you so much for coming and doing this. I know, you have to you have to leave soon.

Lee 41:50
After picking up my son, the one thing I did want to say is like an you know, is, it was the it was the group. It was the practice, practicing being a part of an unrehearsed authentic self, the practice of taking risks, that the practice of, you know, observing some sort of self control, emphasizing the role of having self control. That was really big, and putting the emphasis on yourself as the, you know, the person who needed to change because I, there are things that have happened in our relationship. Of course, there are we always have kinks. But I’ve, you know, I learned to speak up for myself, I learned to say things like, Hey, we’re not going to go to this point until we have seen a couple therapists, you know, and we do we see a therapist once a month. And we and they’re like, they’re, you know, I make sure that we read the books. And yeah, it’s important. So thank you, and he thinks you so

Chris Seiter 43:04
well, thank you both. Thank you for coming on. Because this interview already has so many golden nuggets that I’m going to refer to in the community.

Lee 43:15
And honestly, I’ve only been out and not helping, you know, be could just because of my own personal stuff. But as soon as that kind of comes down at

Chris Seiter 43:23
no pressure, you’re in the golden era. Now you’ve accomplished your goal.

Lee 43:28
You know what, like, I feel like there are things like, I don’t mind talking to people about this stuff, because it’s like, I’ve suffered with this for so long. And if I had figured this out earlier on in life, like who knows, but I can’t go there and I can’t do that type of shoulda coulda woulda, so, right now, I, I’m just grateful that I had the community that I had people. You know, it was just, it was really good. And, you know, the reading lists that were recommended and things like that, just like amazing stuff. Amazing stuff. So,

Chris Seiter 44:04
thank you so much. Thank you. We’re playing Thank you tag. Thank you. Thank you.

Lee 44:12
Yeah, but I gotta go pick up the little. And, ya know, we’re, you know, it was really funny, because when I had, I had started to introduce the idea of bringing David back. And one of the things was he had to apologize to my son. Any, any did? Yeah, that’s scary to do. But he had to, because if you’re going to be a person who’s a representation of what our relationship is, for another, and you know, for a little growing person,

Chris Seiter 44:46
I don’t know. I just love that. You made him apologize. But

Lee 44:49
did I made I mean, there was a lot he had to do. And he did it though. You did it. You got to know we’re doing and we’re doing it and It’s like we’re in this so thank you again and thank you to the group and everyone that helped me because I know they know who they are

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