Yesterday Coach Anna and I recorded an epic interview where we discussed exactly what to do if your ex is angry or mad at you.

What’s interesting about it is the interview evolved into a philosophical discussion on anger and aggression and the intent exes have when they exhibit these things.

So, if you’ve ever had an ex that,

  • Gets angry at you because you’re doing no contact
  • Seems to grow angry at you when you don’t want to see them right away
  • Or even gets angry when you don’t respond fast enough

Then this is definitely the place to learn.

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Exactly What You Should Do If Your Ex Is Angry At You

Chris:
All right, today we have our weekly session with me and Anna just basically talking back and forth about a topic that we went a little nuts over, especially in our Facebook group, which is a big fear that a lot of people have and that’s, what do I do if my ex is angry or mad at me? Do they still care about me? Or even if you have a fear that you’re going to make your ex mad. Anna, being the very, very detail oriented person she is, tells me she had 25 pages of notes here, so.

Anna:
I did.

Chris:
You will be taking the lead today.

Anna:
I did, I did. I started off with that many pages and have pared it down to just five.

Chris:
Just five, no. So let me put this in perspective. When I film a YouTube video up in the YouTube room I’ve got up there, my notes are maybe 300 words total. They’re just random tidbits of words that only I know the meaning to. So my wife, she looked at them one day and she’s like, “What does this mean?” I was like, “Oh, well yeah, I’ll look at that, it’ll remind me of what I’m supposed to say,” and then I’ll just riff. Anna does not work like that. She takes detailed notes, and then pares them down so that’s why Anna will be leading this discussion and I’ll be interjecting with very stupid comments.

Anna:
No, you do not have any stupid comments. You have fantastic comments. What are you taking about? I mean, it’s just me being anal retentive because the first half of my career was in public relations. So it was always being prepared about stuff like that, so.

Chris:
Well, so Anna, before we started recording, she made a really interesting comment that I think people will want to hear, which is, I was talking like, “Okay, how should we frame this discussion? Should it be about a fear of making your ex mad or should it be what to do if your ex is actually mad?” She said, “It all boils down to PR.” So why don’t you explain to everyone what you mean by that concept?

Anna:
Well, I mean it’s about our perception and our ex’s perception. So if we’re concerned about, if my ex is mad at me, in order to solve that problem we have to first understand what’s happening. What’s happening is, that we aren’t necessarily afraid of our ex’s anger. What we’re afraid of is the aggression that is the result of that anger. So anger’s a feeling that we have when we think we’re being treated unfairly or incorrectly or wrongly, but aggression is the expression of that anger. So in terms of our romantic relationships, anger, it’s aggression, not anger. That’s what we fear and we fear aggression in the forms of what our exes may say or do.

Anna:
So for example, aggressive speech, which would be like shouting or insults. Our exes having physical expressions, such as punching walls or ignoring us or it could even go so far as physical or emotional abuse, or expression of painful feelings. So where we end up feeling stressed out and guilty, anxiety, and it’s super awkward. These are all things that come after a fight or a conflict and confrontation, so, but most of us tend to be raised or taught to treat anger and aggression in the same way. Our instincts even also lead us to treat them the same, but we have to separate the two. Once we figure that out, then we can be in a better frame of mind to handle when or exes behave in an aggressive way towards us. Does that make sense?

Chris:
Yeah, I mean there’s a lot there to unpack as well. So where do you think we should go here? What in your 25 pages of notes or now five pages of notes-

Anna:
[crosstalk 00:03:59], yeah.

Chris:
… should we really start with?

Anna:
Well I think we first need to talk about what’s happening when people get angry. So for example, if we think about the work of Dr. John Gottman, the Four Horsemen, how communications are in relationships. The Four Horsemen that’s at play of the four is really criticism. So criticism of the person’s emotional experience. So anger isn’t the problem, because no one has direct control over their emotions. How we feel is how we feel. It feels really crappy to be criticized for something we don’t have control over, but situations that have high negative emotions like anger or grief, often devolve into I think really incredibly chaotic, unpredicted messes, such as a breakup. So because of how we handle these highly negative emotions, we end up criticizing or judging or being criticized or judged for person’s emotional experience. On top of that, we aren’t dealing with the aggression, I think in a smart or strategic way.

Anna:
So in terms of getting an ex back or in a breakup, we tend to not be good at reinforcing boundaries regarding aggression. Asserting that if you behave in an aggressive way, there are consequences or just generally speaking, being aggressive. So that’s why we get a lot of people who say, “I’m afraid that my ex is going to get mad at me, and I want him or her back. I don’t want her to be mad at me.” Well, the thing is, when we respond to a person’s aggression, what we’re doing is we are indirectly telling them, “If you, my ex, behave in this particular way that gets my attention and that’s what you want, you want a reaction from me. You want attention, this is the best way to get it.”

Anna:
So when we are in no contact, we get a lot of people, I get coaching clients all the time, I just had three yesterday saying, “I don’t want my ex to be mad at me.” I have personal feelings on that, but [crosstalk 00:06:03]-

Chris:
Well, we are definitely going to dive into the personal feelings.

Anna:
Yeah, I mean and so it goes from there, about what you’re supposed to do. So I mean that’s the crux of it, we have to figure out, we have to separate anger from aggression. We have to address the anger, acknowledge that that anger is there. Then we need to put consequences or boundaries around the aggressive behavior.

Chris:
All right, so there’s a lot to pack in those statements. The one thing I would say immediately is, it seems to be the number one reason that I see people not wanting to do a no contact rule is a fear of an ex getting angry about that. So when you mention your personal feelings, what are they, per se, about this specific situation, Anna? I’m turning into that devious smile where I know I’m like, oh, she’s going to touch a few nerves with this one.

Anna:
This is… I have very specific… I mean-

Chris:
I do too, that’s why-

Anna:
I’m not going to curse because we don’t do that, but-

Chris:
We’ll do that off camera.

Anna:
We’ll do that off camera, but honestly, if your ex wanted immediate responses and is behaving in an angry way. Let’s say you’re in a no contact and they reach out to you and say, “hey,” and you don’t response. They say, “hey,” again, you don’t respond. Then they say, “I thought we’re going to be friends? You suck for not responding to me,” and all this other stuff. “You wanted to keep talking to me and now you’re not?”

Chris:
Well then they do the guilt trip of like, oh, real mature.

Anna:
So yeah, stuff like that, but the thing is, if your ex wanted immediate responses, your ex shouldn’t have broken up with you or suggested a breakup in the first place, but no contact is a consequence. Breaking no contact tells your ex that being angry gets him or her the attention he or she desires. So no contact is saying, “I’m not going to let you control this situation. You can be angry.”

Chris:
The thing that always strikes me about that is how people really don’t ever view it that way. I guess it really boils down to… There was a video I did this week which was basically talking about altruism versus selfishness, essentially. I think there’s something egoist, some egoism, I can’t remember exactly the technical terms that philosophers were using. But it’s interesting because a lot of people who are afraid that their exes are going to be angry at them if they do a no contact rule, and you often are setting the exact things we see happen from exes where they’re like, “Why aren’t you talking to me? Talk to me, and you’re being a jerk,” and things like that. Instead of looking at it the way that is correct, in the way that you’re suggesting to look at it, because that is the fact, they look at it in that selfish way or self interested way where they’re like, oh my god, it’s going to ruin my chances of getting this person back, but that’s not what we see at all, is it, Anna?

Anna:
Yeah, no, it’s not. I mean in the Facebook group even I think two days ago, we had someone post from their ex that the ex was angry at the person didn’t respond. It was something about the gym. It didn’t require breaking a no contact at all. I mean the person can go to the gym whether or not the ex is there, okay, so that doesn’t matter, but they got really angry. Like, you don’t even have the decency to say yes or no? I was totally right to break up with you, you’re an immature, selfish child, or something to that effect, or really stupid. Well that’s selfish right there. You don’t need affirmation or a response from an ex to tell you whether or not you can go to the gym. Just go to the gym.

Anna:
So your ex after a while will get over being angry. I mean if it’s that important to them, when you reach out to them after you start building rapport, you can just say, “I wasn’t ready. I needed space, and I appreciate that you respected my need for space.” That’s it.

Chris:
Even if they didn’t.

Anna:
Yeah, even if they didn’t. You want to try to position them as the bigger person.

Chris:
Well, going back to that example that you gave where it’s just the logic doesn’t really make sense from the ex’s perspective. What is a technique or tactic that you would give someone to prevent them from falling victim to the mentality of, my ex is going to be so angry at me if I don’t respond? Because really, you’re talking about okay, the no contact itself is the consequence. In a weird way, the way at least I have always looked at it is like, when an ex is doing these things, they’re trying to say these things, they’re almost baiting you to see, is this going to get her to respond? Is this going to get him to respond? If you do, you almost reinforce like, okay, this is their breaking point. I know if I just bug them a bunch of times, eventually they’ll break.

Anna:
You’re rewarding aggressive behavior, that’s what you’re doing. By not responding, you’re basically saying, “I am not responding to aggressive behavior. You can behave in this way all you want, but that’s not going to get you what you want, which is recognition.” It’s separating the anger from the aggression and understanding what is the source of the anger. Anger often is a mask, it’s a defense mechanism for pain or for fear or for shame, all right, or for sadness, grief. So it’s easier to hold onto anger and be angry about something than it is to be super sad about something.

Anna:
Notice that when people… Anger is almost a positive, has positive characteristics, as weird as that sounds. What do I mean by that? When I say that anger has positive characteristics, I mean that when someone says, “You’re stupid,” they’re actually implying I’m smart. You’re selfish, you’re selfish means I’m generous. You’re behaving like a child means I’m behaving like an adult. This is why people get angry very easily and they stay angry because it feels good and it’s personally validating.

Chris:
Wow, I had never really looked at it that way. I guess I always came at it from the perspective of someone who says that thinks that they’re always better than you. The irony is oftentimes they’re not. The person-

Anna:
Right, it’s back at that, what I just said.

Chris:
I know, I know.

Anna:
Whatever they say, it’s getting back to, makes them feel good about themselves.

Chris:
That is so powerful, Anna, because I don’t really think many people look at it that way because as obvious as it sounds, that is true. It’s almost like by… and I guess you can… this is a weird thing to bring up, but if you think about it, it’s almost like trying to dominate another person. It makes you feel better about yourself, and that’s essentially the aggressive behavior that you’re talking about.

Anna:
Yes, yes. Anger often protects the angry person because if the person’s angry, they’re protecting themselves from feeling sadness or shame. So anger is a defense mechanism. Many of us as children learned that we can avoid sadness and shame or fear if we look at situations as being where someone else is wrong. If we feel correct, we distract ourselves from feeling pain. That’s why so many people, so many exes, appear angry and judgemental.

Anna:
So what I like to tell coaching clients and anyone who’s listening to this right now who’s worried about an ex feeling angry, if you understand how anger works, you will have a much easier time staying focused and keeping your boundaries, and being able to handle when someone that you love is acting in an aggressive way towards you.

Chris:
I think this is such a powerful concept because really it cuts it down to the core of what the issue is. The issue is it’s more about them than it is about you.

Anna:
Yes.

Chris:
The defense mechanism aspect of basically saying, “You’re selfish,” which is basically implying I am selfless. We know that’s probably not true.

Chris:
So if you can rewire the way your brain works when you hear these angry things. The response I typically get when… or the response I typically give people in the Facebook group, and it hasn’t happened in a while but the last time I responded to a comment was someone’s ex had freaked out when the no contact day three or something of not getting a response when the girl was in the no contact rule. She was like, “Should I be worried? Is he going to be angry at me?” I said, “No, this means it’s working. You should almost be celebrating that it’s happening this effect on them.” People don’t look at it that way. I guess that’s what Anna and I are trying to do here, which is, we need to reframe the way you look at this.

Anna:
Right, anger is a defense mechanism. Anger is a result of being upset or sad or feeling shame over not getting something that they want. They are trying to find really, in the best way possible, in the best ways they know how, to make themselves feel better, and to tell themselves they’re not wrong. But we know they’re wrong, otherwise the breakup wouldn’t have happened.

Chris:
Yeah, I mean that’s what it boils down to. There’s a lot more also to this discussion because we’re just almost talking specifically about a no contact rule and a reaction to a no contact rule. But sometimes, I’m actually curious, when you’re working with a client, Anna, and they talk. Let’s say they’re in the phone call phase or the FaceTime phase, whatever the heck. Does things ever have a tendency to snowball in a negative way with an ex getting angry right away?

Anna:
Yeah, it happens all the time. We’ll sometimes get exes who want to jump the value chain, will send out [inaudible 00:17:04] text, and then the ex will immediately try to call seven times in a row.

Chris:
Yeah, yeah, this would be me, by the way. This is the type of person I would be.

Anna:
Then get really upset.

Chris:
I’d be like, “Well, let’s just talk.” That’s the logic.

Anna:
Then get really upset, and so this is where you have to again, understand the difference between anger and aggression. What is the function of anger, really, it’s a defense mechanism. It’s them wanting to feel right, it’s them wanting to feel validated. So if they’re trying to call you or say, “Oh, let’s meet up, let’s skip all this blah of texting,” you-

Chris:
Typically potato behavior, Anna.

Anna:
It’s so potato. I just-

Chris:
You’ll have to watch our last interview to get that reference.

Anna:
I mean, just don’t be potatoes, but anyway. What you want to do, I’ll tell clients is that you have to choose. You have to state to your ex, “Yeah, I do want to talk to you, but I can’t talk to you right now on the phone.” So you can either say because of work, because of family, or you’re with the kids or you’re busy and you only have time to text, or you can just be truthful and say, “I want to talk to you but it’s a little uncomfortable right now.” You’re not quite ready to talk on the phone, but you’re really grateful, you’re excited that you’re able to text right now. You want to compliment them and set boundaries. You want to say, “I appreciate that you’re flexible enough to chat with me by text first for a little bit.” Then you just go into your building rapport texts, what you’re doing is you’re soothing and validating your ex without actually giving into what they want.

Chris:
Right, well also in a weird way it’s getting them to do what you want, which is, have that conversation over text to build up that rapport before you… Now, I’m also curious. So I’m assuming the clients who have problems don’t follow that advice? So using your example, they send the first text and they’re like, oh, he’s calling, let me pick up the phone and they talk and then it doesn’t go so well.

Anna:
Yeah, some will, some will. Then what ends up happening more times than not, sometimes it doesn’t always happen this way. I would say maybe out of every 10 times, maybe there would be two times where it doesn’t occur this way, but for the most part what ends up happening is if you give in and jump the value chain, your ex ends up feeling satisfied and then they drop off the face of the earth and they don’t talk to you for a while. They pull back.

Chris:
Or what I have seen is a friends with benefits situation develops. Meaning that they’re mostly just after you for the sexual release and then once they get that, they go.

Anna:
They disappear, or if it’s not that, they just wanted to feel validated that breaking up with you was the right thing to do. I get a lot, I end up hearing from people who jump the value chain and give in, they end up hearing a lot of, “I miss you, I want to be with… I miss you a lot and I think about you all the time, but I think the breakup was the right thing to do.”

Chris:
Yeah, this is an interesting point that you’re bringing up because when I was researching a video yesterday that I filmed, I was looking a lot at Reddit. Sometimes I’ll go to the Reddit breakup threads just to see what people are saying outside of our Facebook group because our Facebook group is really tailored towards our stuff. What’s really interesting is you hear from people years after, they’re reminiscing on the ex that they got back with but didn’t really give them a second chance. It’s always that exact phrase, which is like, I just wanted to… I was in a mood where I was wondering if I had made a mistake. Then I was with them for a little bit and I realized it was a mistake. These are people who have jumped that value chain.

Anna:
Right, right. Now I do-

Chris:
So-

Anna:
Yeah, and I do have some clients who as they begin to build rapport, is they’re in texting phase, their ex, every time they reach out to them, responds with anger or responds in an aggressive way.

Chris:
So, before we continue because I see where you’re going with this. Give people examples of aggressive type of behavior. So let’s assume I’m texting you and I’m like, “Hey, Anna, I saw a show on TV or something and it made me think of you.” What would an aggressive behavior be from that ex?

Anna:
Why the F are you contacting me?

Chris:
Got it.

Anna:
Or, that is a really… after all this time, this is what you’re reaching out to me with? Or, you can Google that, or, I don’t want to talk to you, or, that was really dumb.

Chris:
So they’re just being grade A [crosstalk 00:22:02]-

Anna:
Being super sarcastic.

Chris:
… A-holes, sorry.

Anna:
Yeah.

Chris:
No cursing on the YouTube channel. I almost broke the rule.

Anna:
They are being behinds, they are being very bad, rotten potatoes.

Chris:
Yes, they’re being donkeys.

Anna:
Yes, they are, but really when people are behaving this way, what are they doing? Again, what is the source of anger? What is anger? It’s a defense mechanism. Well, what does it do? It protects from fear, sadness, pain, shame, or embarrassment. What they’re doing is displacing these negative feelings onto you.

Chris:
It’s very young-in philosophy or psychology, which is that shadow and projecting the shadow onto that. That’s essentially… I mean, what she’s saying has not only philosophical ramifications but also psychological ramifications and real world, I mean this is what we’re seeing.

Anna:
I mean what ends up happening is that… I mean, occurring on the ex’s side is that they’re likely perceiving you as doing really well, and they’re not doing so well. Most likely your positive nature and the happiness that maybe you’re showing to sphere of influence, on social media, even just by reaching out to them in a positive way, is reinforcing their own negative self narrative.

Anna:
So what do you do? What you have to do is you have to have consequences to their negative behavior, which is why you would end up doing a mini no contact after each angry outburst. You would call them out on their behavior in a nice way. Just say for example, if I had reached out and said, “Oh, have you seen this, this TV show?” My ex responded with, “Why are you reaching out to me? It’s really stupid that you’re doing this. Leave me alone.” The response should be to call them out nicely on that behavior, which is, “If you didn’t know the answer, all you had to say was you don’t know. But I’ll let you go and I’ll talk to you later. Clearly, you are a little bit unhappy, and I’ll talk to you later.” You do the mini no contact, you continue to live your life, do not reinforce the anger. Do not engage because what they’re looking for is the fight. They want you to be as negative [crosstalk 00:24:19].

Chris:
Well the fight almost validates it. It’s validating things on a lot of levels. It’s helping them cope with… and the irony of it all is they’re probably the ones who broke up with you thinking that life would be better, and they’ve learned the exact opposite. So getting into a fight with you almost validates the, well, I was right in that decision of breaking up with her because look how horrible it is, but if you don’t engage in it, that can even sometimes get them to have a tantrum. Then they’ll have an introspective moment.

Anna:
You do your mini no contact, then you come back again. We would rather have negative responses like these than silence or [crosstalk 00:25:01]-

Chris:
Indifference.

Anna:
… because that’s the difference. Anger, what? It protects the person who is aggressive and angry from feeling other things. Those, anger, we can work with. Indifference or a lack of feeling is something we cannot work with.

Chris:
Yeah, so this is such an interesting discussion. So this is to me one of the more interesting discussions that I think that we’ve had because a lot of the stuff we talked about before is like birthdays and do we talk about birthday? This is something that I feel like almost everyone is going to have an applicable issue with or a fear around. Most breakups you’re dealing with aggressive behavior from either one or both parties. Maybe not aggression in a physical way but you’re very combative, like the example Anna just gave with like, why are you talking to me? That’s a combative type of thing to say.

Anna:
Yeah, I mean aggressive language-

Chris:
Right, right.

Anna:
… is aggression, it is a product of anger.

Chris:
So that’s ultimately what I feel like most people’s fear is and what they will be dealing with. What Anna said is not only brilliant, but also very difficult I think to do, because she just makes it seem like, oh yeah, this is easy, but I don’t think she realizes how hard people… it’ll take a little practice for people to get, which is bringing… calling the ex out. So she called the ex out in a really, really clever way, which is like, well if you didn’t know the answer, you didn’t have to react that way. She was almost putting that elephant in the middle of the room to say we’re going to address this and then I’m going to [crosstalk 00:26:40].

Anna:
I’m going to back away slowly. I mean I think we also had another person in the Facebook group who reached out to her ex in a very nice way and that ex responded to her with a lot of anger. She wasn’t sure what to say in return. That ex had ended the text I think with, “Thank you so much,” being sarcastic. If it were me, I would’ve said, “You’re welcome,” and then said, “But it seems like you’re-

Chris:
Great, that’s awesome.

Anna:
Yeah, I would’ve done a thumbs up or a, “You’re welcome,” but then I certainly would have then said, “Clearly you’re a little unhappy. I’ll talk to you later.”

Chris:
When I was in high school I went through a breakup that was like this where I was the combative one. I’ll never forget.

Anna:
[crosstalk 00:27:33], oh, Chris.

Chris:
I was a bad boy. I still feel bad about it to this day, and ultimately if I’m going to diagnose my psychology and be honest with myself, it’s exactly what you were saying. I wasn’t combative in the fact that like, oh, go F-off or anything like that, but it was being very cold in a rude way. It’s almost like, just… I’m going through a lot of pain and you’re the cause of that pain, and I don’t want to deal with you. So I’m going to be angry at you. That’s essentially, I mean this is for the ladies listening out here, this is from my perspective. This happened to me, I was that aggressive behavior type person. You know what my ex did? Exactly what she should’ve done, exactly what you just said. Something along the lines of, “Well, you didn’t need to react that way. Good bye,” and it drove me nuts.

Anna:
Right? So what happened there? She called you out nicely, she set boundaries around the behavior, around the aggression, and there were consequences, which is, she exited. She did not engage with you.

Chris:
Guess what? I was calling her a week later trying to get in touch with her. So, if you want perspective on if what she’s saying has real life applications, I can be a literal example of this working.

Anna:
I mean, people are going to be… exes are often going to be angry, just about all kinds of stuff, but this is the thing. We all have to be prepared for an aggressive response from our ex. It helps ahead of time to say, okay… to accept that, hey yeah, there may be some aggression here. They’re probably going to be a little bit angry. So what am I going to say? Be prepared so that you’re not caught off guard and you’re not freaking out like, oh my god, what am I going to say? Just have-

Chris:
Well you’ll feel way better about yourself too, just having that preparation involved. I mean I know I would feel a lot more confident going into something like that. You don’t even need to know exactly what you’re going to say, you just need to know this is the theory that I need to put into practice.

Anna:
Right, which is, you need to call it out nicely, put boundaries around it, and then exit, and not engage. So another thing that I’ve seen where exes get mad at is they seem to be watching your social media. Then they reach out to you because they’re pissed off, that it seems like you’re going out and having fun or moving on, or yeah, or having [crosstalk 00:30:10] or possibly dating others.

Chris:
This is my favorite thing in the whole world.

Anna:
Yeah, or you’re going on a vacation you’re supposed to go on together, or you’re achieving the things that you promised you would but never did until after the breakup. So your ex is super angry seeing all this on your social media. I have clients in followup calls talk to me about this all the time. All that you do again, is nicely call out the behavior. So after, it looks like they text you in a really angry way. Well, it’s nice to know that you can go out to these concerts that I always want you to take me to, but you never did, or you ended up, I don’t know, cleaning up that house like I always wanted you to. Just being nasty about it.

Anna:
So you just need to let that sit there for a while and respond simply with, “Hey, it’s good to hear from you but I just want you to know unfortunately are broken up. All I’m doing is living my life. I’m not doing anything that’s disrespectful to you or to our past relationship. I’m not judging you for anything that you do, but I want you to know that you’re still meaningful to me as a person or that I still value your time.” You need to say things like that. You don’t have to say all of that, but something along those lines to disarm them, and then move on. Just, you seem a little angry or a little upset. So I will talk to you later. Done.

Chris:
Yeah, but there’s a couple of things that came to my mind when you were going through your spiel. The way you said it and that mock thing, you were like… you just called the behavior out in this really nice way. I’m not doing anything disrespectful. I was like, oh yeah, this is working on me. That’s really good, but essentially that’s the Michelle Obama style of things, which is when they go low, you go high.

Anna:
[crosstalk 00:31:59], yeah.

Chris:
But to detail a little bit more of what, at least from the guy’s perspective of what that will do, is it causes them to introspect, to sit back and think to themselves, am I being ridiculous about this? That introspection is usually what can lead to some sort of regret or taking an action or even sometimes apologizing for being a jerk. That’s the type of behavior you want. You want them to introspect and realize, I missed an opportunity with her or I missed an opportunity with him.

Anna:
Right, everything that I’m saying is literally a variation on the antidote to defensiveness as outlined by John Gottman, that’s it. So what is the antidote to defensiveness? It is simply this, restate the persons position. Explain how that’s right. Then, you state your position and then you exit. That’s all, done.

Chris:
Well that also, so the John Gottman stuff, we’ve talked a lot on the podcast about the, Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss. He uses this exact thing, he phrases it as tactical empathy and understanding the opponent’s world view and everything like that, but this is a real FBI negotiator that’s used this to save lives. So if you sit there and think to yourself you’re above it or that you’re not… I’m telling you, this can work, especially on emotional or over emotional exes. But I guess the key component is you need to look at things from their perspective so they feel like, oh okay, they get what I’m going through.

Anna:
Yeah, I mean also what the defensiveness antidote does is, it’s called differential reinforcement. So I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but I talk about it with my coaching clients sometimes. So reinforcement is the psychological concept that says that our behaviors are influenced by what follows them. So, specifically, if a behavior is followed by a pleasant experience, the chances of that behavior happening again are increased. But if that behavior is followed by an unpleasant experience, the chance of the behavior happening again are decreased.

Anna:
So differential reinforcement is understanding a person’s motivations and their behaviors. So if you’re struggling with someone’s anger or aggression, you can use differential reinforcement to your advantage. I hate putting things in terms of advantage, but yes.

Chris:
Well so the way I have always looked at it is, a good feelings versus bad feelings, type thing. That’s a crude way of looking at it but if you do something and it makes you feel good, you’re a lot more likely to redo that behavior because if something makes you feel bad… maybe there’s an example where you’re at work and let’s say you have to let someone go at work. You are just dreading… actually, I’ll give a personal example from today.

Chris:
I had to call our lawnmower person because they hadn’t billed me in two years. There was a gigantic bill that their secretary messed up on and I did not want to pay that bill. I mean, we’re talking expensive, two years worth of thing. So I’m calling to verify this is the amount, figure out what happened and everything. I kept putting it off because I did not… and it kept making me feel bad. I didn’t want to do that. Paying that money to someone for someone else’s mistake is not going to make you feel good. So I just keep avoiding that behavior. At least that’s the way I’ve looked at it. We can talk off camera about the lawnmower. I have thoughts about that.

Anna:
But I mean again, if we think about differential reinforcement, almost always aggressive or frustrating behavior like our exes being mad at us, texting us and being angry, is normally followed by something that reinforces it and makes it more likely to happen. Giving the angry person attention-

Chris:
Feels good, it feels good.

Anna:
Yeah, it feels good. Remember what we talked about before? How anger has positive characteristics? So by giving into them or answering that angry text or email immediately, it says you’re not ignoring them and you’re telling them they’re right. It’s showing them that what they believe about this situation is true.

Chris:
Even if it’s not.

Anna:
That’s why… yeah, even though when it’s not. That’s why you don’t respond right away. That’s why you do not jump to explain and say, “I’m not ignoring you.” Well, yes you are, that’s the point of no contact. Your job is not to satisfy or validate that, because they’re going to continue thinking… they’re going to think, if I continue to be angry at this person, I’ll always get the attention that I want deep down.

Chris:
Yeah, and the truth is most people in relationships don’t know about this concept. So they will immediately respond in an emotional way and it validates the behavior and they’re sending… and honestly, it makes them feel good. I mean I’m sure, at least I’ve experienced where you’re angry at someone. You’re looking to fight with them, you’re just like, I’m going to fight with this person, I’m going to argue with this person, and if they argue back, it’s going to get me going to the point where I’m just like, yes, I’m right, I’m right, I’m right. It feels good and it’s addicting a little bit, as odd as that can sound, and that’s what’s happening with your ex, especially if you have an ex who’s broken up with you. I mean, they’re sitting there thinking, I made a great decision breaking up with her or breaking up with him. The more you argue and get into fights with them, the more than convinces them that they did make a great decision.

Anna:
You are making them feel good deep down, don’t do that. In differential reinforcement, we do not encourage aggression, we walk away. We go high, as Michelle Obama would say.

Chris:
That’s my [crosstalk 00:38:08]-

Anna:
We have consequences, as I’ve been saying earlier, whatever it is, we need to not reinforce that. We need to not give that attention. The more attention we give, the more life it has. We do not want to give life to anger.

Chris:
No, it’s like a flame. You just put the top on the candle and it just dies. So the top in this case is not responding to an ex immediately.

Anna:
Yeah, correct, right.

Chris:
There’s… I also want to point out one thing that might be confusing to people. We talked about no contact and you shouldn’t respond during no contact. We also talked about, well what happens if you reach out and you get an angry text in response. You shouldn’t respond to that right away?

Anna:
No, you never.

Chris:
You should wait some time?

Anna:
Mm-hmm (affirmative), always put a little bit of time.

Chris:
[crosstalk 00:38:56]-

Anna:
I would say at least 15 minutes to an hour.

Chris:
So let’s turn this up a notch. Let’s say this aggressive language occurs when you’re in person with them. How do you handle that?

Anna:
Well, I mean we would use some of the techniques from Never Split the Difference. It seems to me-

Chris:
It sounds to me like you’re upset because of blah, blah, blah.

Anna:
Yeah, you’re upset because of X, Y, and Z. Again, that’s the defensiveness antidote. Restating the person’s position, and say, “I can see why you would be upset, however, this is my perspective on it, or this is really what’s happening. I am sorry that this is how you feel.” If they continue to be aggressive, then you would say, “We’re not going to have a productive discussion about this right now. I think it’s better that we either go our separate ways this evening,” if you’re hanging out, or, “I go home or we pay the bill. We come and talk about this again when we’re both able to speak more calmly.”

Chris:
Yeah, the one thing I would say is a lot of times we’ll see this happen if you have jumped the value chain. I mean you’re not putting in the work to build up that emotional connection through texting, through talking on the phone. Instead, you’re just like, you text them, they text you right back, “Hey, let’s meet up.” You’re just like, oh, I got him back, sweet. You go meet up and then things fly off the handle.

Anna:
It devolves because [crosstalk 00:40:45].

Chris:
There’s a reason why we are so adamant about you following this value chain. It’s our way of rebuilding that foundation before you actually do romantic things in person. That’s a very simple birds-eye view of it.

Anna:
Right, your ex, both of you need to have invested time in one another in a changed state before you really get back together. It takes time for real change to happen, it’s not going to happen overnight.

Chris:
Yeah, the great quote is, “Great things never happen suddenly.” Some famous philosopher said that, “Rome wasn’t build in a day,” all applies here.

Anna:
Right, right. I think another thing that I often get from clients, coaching clients about anger is interestingly enough, when exes get upset that you’re spending time sphere influence.

Chris:
Oh, so who specifically in the sphere of influence, like mutual friends?

Anna:
Well okay, mutual friends. We’ve even seen in the Facebook group, we’ve had exes, they went well into building rapport. Suddenly find out that a mutual friend has asked you or the coaching client or the person in the Facebook group, to go hang out. Or in another instance that I’ve seen where the family member will hire my coaching client to go do a job on their house, or to do some work for them. So the ex will return, reach out to the Facebook group member or my coaching client and say, “How dare you spend time with that mutual friend or with my mom or with my dad or do that work for my aunt. How dare you.”

Chris:
Like they have a monopoly on their friend’s time?

Anna:
You’re crossing a boundary that’s completely inappropriate. What do you do with that? Well honestly, this is where you set a boundary and you state their position. Again, I understand, you sound upset. I wasn’t aware that whoever the mutual friend is, or whoever the family member was, were off-limits. I understand that especially with the breakup that this is uncomfortable, but I’m allowed to have personal connections to people too and to make and maintain friendships. Also, this person contacted me, not the other way around to do X, Y, and Z. So if it makes you uncomfortable that I spend time with them, I’m very willing to talk to that person and ask that person if they prefer to not be friends with me because you’re uncomfortable.

Chris:
Anna, you’re so good. You scared me when you said that, just your face is so perfect in how you said that. Also, you almost used an argument against, you poked holes in their logic in a really clever way.

Anna:
That’s what you got to do. I mean we have to anticipate that sometimes… I mean, anger is not rational. So a way to… when we’re acknowledging how our exes feel again in the defensiveness antidote, okay, we need to acknowledge how they feel and then we need to stay our position, which is going to be much more logical and rational than theirs.

Chris:
Yeah-

Anna:
But we have to plan for that.

Chris:
Usually when we do these interviews, I’m like, oh, I have something to add. I don’t have anything to add. That’s about as perfectly summed up as you can make it.

Anna:
I’ve had so many clients though, who’ve had exes who get really pissed off about, why did you do this work for X, Y, and Z? Why did you go out to that party that you were invited to? It’s like, well-

Chris:
That’s interesting behavior. I mean, where would that fall in… this is just me wondering only because I was doing extensive research on attachment styles for marriage today. Where would that fall with an attachment style, because usually what we’re finding-

Anna:
This is not an attachment style thing, though.

Chris:
I know, I know, I’m just curious. Usually we’re finding anxious attachment styles are usually our clients, and they’re usually paired up with an avoidant attachment style.

Anna:
Correct, I mean that is the most common pair.

Chris:
So [crosstalk 00:45:14] avoidant… so if this is an avoidant attachment style person getting super defensive and almost anxious over a friend, I just find the intricacies of that concept interesting.

Anna:
Well, if you’re talking about an avoidant, there are two kinds. The fearful and the dismissive.

Chris:
[crosstalk 00:45:32], right.

Anna:
Yeah, the fearful is the much more common. The fearful will have anxious attachment style characteristics for this anxiety. So that’s where if your ex is an avoidant, most likely and if they are being angry in this way, that person is most likely a fearful avoidant.

Chris:
Fearful avoidant.

Anna:
Yeah, right.

Chris:
Less dismissive where they’re just like, I’m a lone wolf.

Anna:
Dismissive people-

Chris:
I’m away from the world.

Anna:
Yeah, they actively reject emotional intimacy so the fact that you’re friends with their mutual friends, that’s fine because they’re not hanging out with their mutual friends anyway.

Chris:
So the only reason I bring this up is, we’re dealing with exes who are super angry. Really, the key to handling that anger or doing the Judo and flipping the anger on its head is understanding where the anger is coming from. So your example, which is they’re angry at your still but they’re angry at you for an irrational reason of like, well, you’re hanging out with a friend. This is my… I found them first. I just think it gives people insight into understanding, this is why your ex is acting that way.

Anna:
Right, I mean again, anger, this behavior is not related to attachment style. It isn’t.

Chris:
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I get that. That was just me because I was like, it’s on the head, it’s the most relevant thing that I was doing today for work, so yeah.

Anna:
But I mean it’s how we handle negative emotions and what ends up happening is we end up criticizing or judging people. Our exes act out in very specific ways. Again, aggressive speech, shouting, insults, punching walls, ignoring you, trying to trigger in you, stress, guilt, anxiety and awkwardness. These are the results of anger.

Chris:
So the last time I got really, really angry was over a third surgery. So I’ve had four surgeries in the past two years.

Anna:
I remember.

Chris:
So the first two surgeries, that was almost like a lamb going to slaughter. I just accepted everything, but when I heard I had a third one, I’ll never forget. I got so angry because it was a really hurtful thing. This is the dumbest thing ever, but I had my phone in my hand like this, and I slammed it down really hard and was like, oh no, I hope I didn’t break my phone. So yeah.

Anna:
Wow.

Chris:
That’s when I get really angry, I’ll… my phone and just slam it down and just get really angry, so.

Anna:
There was a physical component to that, right?

Chris:
Yeah, physical component.

Anna:
When we get angry, what do we want to do? What do we want to do when we get angry? We want to fight, we want to shout, we want to blame, we want to-

Chris:
Very primal, isn’t it?

Anna:
It is, yeah, it is. So [crosstalk 00:48:31]-

Chris:
I don’t want to get political here, but we’ve seen that take… In our current environment in America, we’ve seen that divisiveness and anger on a level that I’ve never seen before in human. So if you’re sitting there thinking you can’t relate to this, just look around what’s going around in the world.

Anna:
Yeah, I mean anger again, what does it do? It masks or it protects the person who’s angry from the other emotions that they don’t want to feel, which is sadness and pain and fear and shame.

Chris:
We’ll use my surgery example, not so much shamed but sadness, sorrow, depression.

Anna:
[crosstalk 00:49:16].

Chris:
That’s what it’s masking, because those are the… because I had been through two surgeries and I know those surgeries, the recovery’s really rough for the ones that I had. There’s a lot of depression that almost gets coupled in with there. So you’re just like-

Anna:
You have a really rough go of it. I’m mean, I [crosstalk 00:49:34]-

Chris:
I had to go across the country for an expert to pay out of pocket to get fixed.

Anna:
[crosstalk 00:49:39] because it was-

Chris:
Five states to get there and during COVID, but it was the best decision I ever made, but the point is like-

Anna:
I mean, [crosstalk 00:49:46].

Chris:
… the anger was to mask that, those feelings of like, oh, I’m going to be super depressed.

Anna:
Right, so again, if you understand the source and function of anger, and you can plan so that when this comes up, because it most likely is going to come up. Your ex will be angry no matter what you do, that is the function of breakups. No one comes out of a breakup saying, “I’m super excited, and this is the happiest time of my life. I have no pain or sadness or anger about this at all.” No one says that.

Chris:
No one’s sane. I feel like the Joker from Batman might come out of a breakup like that.

Anna:
Okay, but that’s the Joker.

Chris:
Well, so I was watching… I got HBO Max and they have a Batman animated series, the old one back. I watched this one where the Joker broke up with Harley Quinn, that’s an interesting one.

Anna:
I didn’t see that.

Chris:
I’m sorry, sorry, that is the most random. I need to cut that out of this.

Anna:
But I mean if we’re going to bring it back to Buffy.

Chris:
Okay, yeah, yeah.

Anna:
Both Angel and Spike were very upset.

Chris:
So let me think here, Spike, I remember she broke up with him in season six during the wedding episode and he was really… no, no, it was before the wedding episode because he brought the date to the wedding to try and make her jealous. He was like, “Oh yeah, did it work?” She was like, “A little.” I’m trying to think, I think wasn’t it Angel that broke up with her because he was like-

Anna:
Yeah, but he was still upset.

Chris:
… he was going to leave?

Anna:
But he was still upset.

Chris:
Yeah, that’s true, that’s true, but he couldn’t sleep with her, that’s what it boiled down to. That’s the truth, he’d lose his soul if he slept with her.

Anna:
That’s right, I mean-

Chris:
Sorry, I am ruining Buffy for those who haven’t watch it, sorry.

Anna:
I mean, if you haven’t watch it, you need to have watched it by now, so okay.

Chris:
Yeah, it’s almost a prerequisite to be part of ex-boyfriend recovery, ex-girlfriend recovery. You have to watch Buffy from start to finish.

Anna:
But you have to have some understanding of Buffy and you have to know about the tapes.

Chris:
Yeah, MP was talking about that in the Facebook group today. I don’t know if you saw that. She was-

Anna:
I did.

Chris:
She watched our entire interview when we were talking about, what was it? Cobra Kai and Wanda Vision and Buffy and, sorry. Be part of the Facebook group, guys. It’s fun in there.

Anna:
I mean the Facebook group is pretty awesome. We are putting together our Valentine card exchange right now as we speak.

Chris:
I just recently had to film a video on my phone for the best… for Hollywood Life, which is a really big celebrity website. They wanted a quote, and I know a reporter there, so she was like, “Hey, just get me a quote for something on what to get a guy for Valentine’s Day.” I thought about it for days, thinking, I don’t know, but the more I thought about it, I actually figured out, okay, this is what I think the best gift would be. So I’m going to spoil it for everyone here.

Anna:
What did you say?

Chris:
What you need to do is you need to get a guy a gift that he will use. That’s the key, because if he… so look at these headphones right here. My wife bought this for me for Christmas because for ever my headphones were falling apart and these can connect up to iMac. Every time I wear these headphones, I think about wife now because I’m using it.

Anna:
[crosstalk 00:53:07].

Chris:
So it almost is like an association between it. So use that, Anna, use that.

Anna:
Well, I will, I will, but well, last Valentine’s Day, what’d I get my husband? I got him a really cool pocket knife.

Chris:
Yeah, but is he using the pocket knife every day?

Anna:
Yeah, I mean-

Chris:
Really? So he must think of you every time he uses it.

Anna:
I mean how often do you use a knife? We use a knife a lot, to open all kinds of stuff. Really useful.

Chris:
Well, only when I’m opening my daughter’s gifts, do I start looking around for the knife.

Anna:
When given that we constantly have packages being delivered to our home.

Chris:
True, true.

Anna:
[crosstalk 00:53:37].

Chris:
See, I’ve got one of those box cutter for those things. Those do a pretty good job, but.

Anna:
Well, I feel like in the South, you need to use your knife every day. I’m not saying that we use it to stab people or anything, but I feel like I’m using… even I feel like I’m [crosstalk 00:53:51].

Chris:
We were just talking about Buffy, it’s like… all right, so clearly Anna and I are full of joy and happiness and no anger here, so.

Anna:
Right, we are not angry.

Chris:
So to bring it back around to your notes, is there anything that we missed that we really needed to cover, or we’re pretty thorough?

Anna:
No, I think we really covered the situation that people tend to ask about. What if my ex is just mad at me in general? Okay, and how to respond if they’re angry because I’m in the middle of a no contact, and I’m not responding to them? Or, after I finish the no contact and they’re still angry, or if every time I reach out and try to build rapport, they’re angry, or they’re upset about spending time with sphere of influence, or they’re upset about something they’ve seen on social media. So I think we’ve covered most of the main things.

Chris:
And, what to do during those things. So I actually think this is a really perfect rewatch for people who are like… because even going through it, I know I’m going to rewatch it, only because when I have to do a Facebook live and get answered or asked about this, I’m going to be like, okay, what did Anna say? I’m going to just parrot it back to people and make it sound like I came up with it, but I really didn’t, it was all you.

Anna:
But I would really like for people to remember as you’re watching this, remember that anger is separate from aggression. That anger is a defense mechanism. Also, that we want to use differential reinforcement, so in other words, meeting the anger with acknowledgement, and then silence, rather than engaging in a fight. Also, plan, plan ahead of time. Assume that your ex will be angry about something and just be prepared on how to answer that, and we’ve just given you an outline how to answer the biggest scenarios that we see the most often.

Chris:
One thing that I’m really glad about finding you and having you be a coach is I think back to when I started and I was alone doing this, just writing articles in my room. The advice has gotten so much better, to the point where see, the anger thing was, I didn’t have enough experience in dealing with the sheer volume of people that would be reading my stuff. That was not something I had to consider when I first started figuring out like, okay, this is what I think will work, and then testing it. Just over the years it’s gotten so much better, just even by having you being part of it, putting your touches on it, having other people in the Facebook group just basically be essentially some sort of group think tank on what can potentially work. I’m just, I’m going to pat myself on the back or pat the business on the back, I am really proud of what we have accomplished because I really feel like we might have the very best advice in the world on exes, at least the most practical and [crosstalk 00:56:50] advice.

Anna:
100%, it’s definitely. I mean, we have a vast, collective wisdom in the Facebook group. I mean, I’ve been a part of it for over four years now, and I’ve seen it grow-

Chris:
Since we started, yeah.

Anna:
Yeah. Yeah, I mean it’s just been amazing. You can search back into our archives and you can see how the conversations have changed over the years, but because of that, it’s just been refined over time. Then my own just personal experience just as a public relations person, just understanding how to navigate crises. So it makes talking about how to handle an angry ex a lot easier, because I used to have a client actually where we had to deal with death announcements all the time.

Chris:
Oh, wow. So, that is extreme. You really got to be careful about what you say.

Anna:
Right, and so taking that, and then I also used to represent a lot of pharmaceutical companies. So you have to be very careful about language there too. So it becomes very easy to identify what you should be saying and not saying. It’s really fun I think, being a part of ERP and being a coach for ERP, because I get to share a lot of that experience with you guys because it’s applicable to relationships quite easily.

Chris:
So let’s talk a little bit about coaching, because this is our thing that we’ve been doing and so I just want to say, this is my favorite type of content to produce. Not only is it easy because it’s just a conversation, but it’s just fun because Coach Anna is one of the smartest people I think I’ve ever met.

Anna:
What?

Chris:
Yes, you know it, you know it’s true.

Anna:
No.

Chris:
So, like-

Anna:
I’m flattered, thank you.

Chris:
So I love conversations where I feel like I learn something. I feel like I learned something today. Just looking at their responses in that way where you’re realizing like, oh yeah, it is a defense mechanism, I always looked at it as, just be silent, let them get over it. But understanding the reasoning behind it, I think is really, really insightful.

Chris:
But coaching, so there’s a lot going on with coaching right now. We brought on a new coach, Coach Tyler-

Anna:
Yep, who’s amazing.

Chris:
… because Coach Anna was in such high demand. So Tyler got booked up really fast and he’s overwhelmed now, so we’re having fun teasing him about him making his calendar a little too available because Anna and I both told him, we said, “Hey, you might want to limit your day a little bit because six coaching clients back to back to back is a lot.” Did he listen, Anna?

Anna:
Then he did it. No, he did not. Bless his heart, and it’s okay. We all have to… I would rather he figure that out early, I mean because I remember, I was trying to find my own limit. I did nine sessions back to back, and I felt like I wanted to poke my eyes out with a fork by the end of it.

Chris:
Okay, so the point we’re trying to make is, we put a lot of work and effort into these sessions, especially Anna. If you’ve seen her homework and suggested reading materials, it makes me vomit to the point where I’m just like, it’s so much.

Anna:
I am Asian, I want, [crosstalk 01:00:12]-

Chris:
You can’t hide behind that always, Anna.

Anna:
I am going to give you homework.

Chris:
But the homework’s fun and it’s always tailored to your situation. You have a bunch of fun on the phone call with Anna, as you see. One of the primary reasons why we wanted to do these podcast episodes where it’s almost like you became my weekly co-host, I guess, in the podcast-

Anna:
I like it.

Chris:
… which is fun, is to show you, this is how we work. Anna is probably the best coach I think, in the industry.

Anna:
Thank you.

Chris:
I just, the compliments just come out of me when we’re-

Anna:
Yeah, you’re so nice. I’m like, what? Who? I-

Chris:
So this is that good feelings, bad feelings thing. It’s like, I want her to come back next week, so this is what I have to do. So, I don’t know, it’s a little bit calculated perhaps, but so yeah. Coaching with Anna, February’s just around the corner here. Her February calendar’s getting booked a little bit ahead of time.

Anna:
Yes, [crosstalk 01:01:11], yeah. I mean it’s because my followup clients always have access to my calendar. So it’s more difficult for new clients to get on it, but-

Chris:
So let’s explain that to people how that works. We have two different pricing models. We have the model that is available for people who are coming into the program or into coaching with us for the first time. Then you have people who have coached with you, and then get a followup session. So, the price of the followup session is severely discounted to make it-

Anna:
God, yes.

Chris:
… more affordable for you, I guess. But one thing that Anna is really good at, and I don’t know what this says more about her being an amazing salesperson or just being an amazing coach. I think it’s probably a coach thing, is 70% of the people that work with her do a followup session with her.

Anna:
I swear, I’m not trying to make them do followup calls.

Chris:
I know, I know, I-

Anna:
I literally tell people, “You don’t have to coach with me again, and a matter of fact, feel like you don’t have to coach with me. I’ll even write that in the email. You don’t have to coach with me, if you want to, here it is. If you don’t, that’s okay too. I’m not going to be mad at you.”

Chris:
The beauty of Anna is, a couple of years ago… How long have we been doing the coaching?

Anna:
Since 2018, [crosstalk 01:02:32].

Chris:
[crosstalk 01:02:32]. Okay, all right, so it’s been a long time.

Anna:
[crosstalk 01:02:36] three years now, literally.

Chris:
All right, so maybe a couple of months into coaching, I was starting to see like, okay, how many people are going to sign up for these followup sessions with her? I was a little worried, because I was like, if she can get 15% of people to sign up for her followup session. So we wait a month and she’s got 70% of people doing followup and I call her and I’m like, “Anna, explain to me, what are you doing exactly?” I said, “Break it down for me,” and she’s like, “Well, I tell them that they don’t need to do a session with me,” and I just say, “But if you want one, here’s the link.”

Anna:
That’s all.

Chris:
It’s at your convenience. I’m like… I felt like a mad scientist trying to deconstruct exactly how she’s figured out this… I was like, this [crosstalk 01:03:22]-

Anna:
It’s not by design.

Chris:
… transform our business if we could get these… well-

Anna:
I mean I’m literally just telling people, I tell them, “You don’t pay. If you’re coaching with me, you do not pay me to lie to you. You do not pay me to sugarcoat things. You pay me to tell you the truth and to help you be as smart as possible.” That’s how I think about it. Also, I’m a little cheap. So I was an executive at a bank, so I am a little cheap. So if I don’t think that you need to coach with me again, I’ll be honest with you. Quite honestly, all of my coaching clients are pretty smart to very smart people. Everyone is at least smart, and so I think that I feel that if I just give you the information, you’re smart enough on your own to go read it, do it, and get your ex back. Just be smart, just have patience, control yourself and your emotions, don’t do super weird stuff, and you’ll be fine. But if you want to talk to me again, I’d be happy to, and we can hang out, it’s totally fine.

Chris:
So ultimately, what I think it is, is I think she does such a really good job on the first coaching session that it blows people aways. They’re like, I need that experience again. That’s what I think it is, Anna, not the-

Anna:
Maybe.

Chris:
… you being like, “Well, you don’t need it.” I think they get a lot of value out of what you are teaching them. Just use this podcast as an example. I’m sitting here listening to her, her ideas on disarming anger, which I guess essentially is… or disarming aggressive language, which essentially is what we spent a lot of time talking about. I’m sitting here thinking, wow, I didn’t think of that. A little jealous, I think. I was like, oh, I wish I’d thought of that. So the point is-

Anna:
I mean-

Chris:
… if she’s making me do that. She’ll blow you out of-

Anna:
… my husband hates arguing with me.

Chris:
I can see why.

Anna:
Because I normally win.

Chris:
Yeah yeah, which is perfect for what we’re doing here. So if you want your winning an argument, here you go, here’s Anna, but yeah. Coaching-

Anna:
Being married to me, not so great if you want to argue with me.

Chris:
That’s not true.

Anna:
[crosstalk 01:05:42].

Chris:
I’m sure he loves you and worships the ground you walk on.

Anna:
[crosstalk 01:05:47].

Chris:
I’m sure he loves you still.

Anna:
I hope he still loves me. I’ll ask him later.

Chris:
He still loves you. Yeah, yeah. He’ll come and make an appearance on the podcast.

Anna:
Yeah, he’ll poke his head in and say, “I still love you.”

Chris:
That’s yet to happen, since I’ve known you, I’ve never seen him accidentally walk in and be like, “Oh, God.” That’s happened so many times with me and my wife.

Anna:
Because he’s honestly, he’s a pretty shy guy. He doesn’t like the way he looks on camera.

Chris:
I think it would fantastic to embarrass him on the podcast. Bring him on and just embarrass him.

Anna:
I think he would hate me for that.

Chris:
See? Hey-

Anna:
I don’t want to start arguing with him about that.

Chris:
… if we want to really put her on the spot, we need to see if she can win that argument, getting him to come.

Anna:
No, I don’t think [crosstalk 01:06:31].

Chris:
[crosstalk 01:06:31] Facebook Live or something would be great.

Anna:
Yeah, I have a hard enough time trying to get him to take any picture whatsoever. He just is not [crosstalk 01:06:39].

Chris:
Yeah, I had a hard time even appearing on the website, Ex-boyfriend Recovery when I first started. I was like, what if people find out my name?

Anna:
But you are a very attractive man, [crosstalk 01:06:49].

Chris:
I really ran to the bank with that, if I’m being honest. I’m like, well, maybe the advice isn’t great but if I look like I know what I’m talking about and I’m decently good looking, they’ll listen to me.

Anna:
You are more than decently, you are a handsome man.

Chris:
Thank you so much, you know exactly what to say.

Anna:
I’ve had clients tell me that one of the reasons why they bought the program is because they thought you were super cute. So they were like… [crosstalk 01:07:17].

Chris:
Thank you, they are funding my mortgage right there, that’s the good looks. Unfortunately, I’m getting gray hairs now and I’m not sure-

Anna:
Are you?

Chris:
Yeah, a couple, a couple. I was-

Anna:
You’re too young to get gray hair.

Chris:
I agree, I agree.

Anna:
Do you color your hair?

Chris:
No, I think I’ll be a whole gray fox. I’m going to try to pull off the younger looking thing while I can, but I might have to do a shift. We might have to hire a body double for me pretty soon.

Anna:
I think [inaudible 01:07:48].

Chris:
But yeah, anyways, if you want to have a bunch of fun with Coach Anna or even Coach Tyler, but-

Anna:
Yeah, Tyler’s fun too.

Chris:
It’ll have to be February because we’re all booked up for January, but February’s just around the corner.

Anna:
Aren’t we opening up coaching soon anyway?

Chris:
Pretty soon, we’re having a big talk tomorrow with Anna, Tyler, and me, all about stuff. So I guess we can talk about that.

Anna:
I personally think [crosstalk 01:08:12]-

Chris:
What do you think? Maybe we can make the decision on air here?

Anna:
Yeah, I mean, yes. I think-

Chris:
He’ll have to open up his calendar for February for that, but.

Anna:
Yeah, I think as soon as he has his calendar set up, then we can open coaching.

Chris:
All right, so soon.

Anna:
Right? Because February 1st is on Monday.

Chris:
Yeah, wow. This really flew by, didn’t it?

Anna:
Right?

Chris:
Right?

Anna:
[inaudible 01:08:36].

Chris:
But yeah, if you’re interested in coaching. I will say that we now have a, and Anna and I were laughing about this, a 25% discount if you are a member of the Facebook group. You get to be a member of the Facebook group basically by purchasing Ex-boyfriend recovery program, which is basically our entire program digitalized and really easy to understand manner, gets you into the Facebook group. A lot of other perks, but also gives you that 25% discount so that you can literally sit down and have this fun conversation I’m having with Anna and try to embarrass her husband.

Anna:
I will talk to you about anything.

Chris:
It’s true, she will.

Anna:
I will, I have.

Chris:
Yeah, she does, it’s true. It’s true, but yeah, if you’re interested in coaching with any of the ex recovery coaches, just look in the description if you’re on YouTube, just click on the link you see there and we’ll hook you up. Yeah, I mean down there, we’ll get you, we’ll square you away.

Chris:
Any last words, Anna, about getting people to sign up with you?

Anna:
Come hang out with me, I would like it a lot.

Chris:
She would like you to hang out with her a lot.

Anna:
Yeah.

Chris:
That’s it, yeah.

Anna:
We’ll have fun, we’ll talk about stuff, we’ll sort you out, we’ll make sure that no weird stuff happens, you’ll be fine.

Chris:
You’re in great hands with Anna because her success rate apparently is 95%, is it now?

Anna:
Well that-

Chris:
All right, so let’s get it strict here at the end. From my understanding, and I want to make sure I’m quoting this right. People who have successfully gotten their exes back since working with you is 70%, but if you include-

Anna:
In the mid 70s.

Chris:
Mid 70s, oh, my bad. Sorry, that 5% is really important.

Anna:
Yes, I am Asian and I like numbers.

Chris:
I know, yeah, that’s true. Well, we’re about the throw a big one out. So if I’m understanding this correctly, if you account for the clients who decided, eh, I don’t want my ex back anymore, that number jumps to 95%?

Anna:
About 95%. 95, [crosstalk 01:10:36].

Chris:
There we go, see, I didn’t short change you on that one.

Anna:
95.3 or something like that.

Chris:
Oh, it’s even higher? So I short changed you 0.3%. All right. We’re-

Anna:
I know, me being anal retentive, I’m sorry.

Chris:
So when I say you’re in good hands, probably what I really mean is, you’re in the very best hands in the business.

Anna:
Is it really in the business?

Chris:
Well if you think about it, there’s only a couple of really big competitors that do coaching like we’re doing. This just is my opinion folks, but I do not think their coaching is as good as our coaching.

Anna:
[inaudible 01:11:17], yeah.

Chris:
So, that is super arrogant of me to say and I totally recognize that. I am not the best person to be making that judgment, but I’m going to make it anyways, yeah.

Anna:
Well, I think in terms of qualifications, certainly. [crosstalk 01:11:32].

Chris:
Qualifications.

Anna:
If we go toe-to-toe with anyone.

Chris:
Plus, we’re forcing Tyler to get a… what is that, the thing?

Anna:
Well, he’s going to be an MD, a doctor.

Chris:
Yeah, we’re forcing him to get his doctorate degree. We made that decision for him.

Anna:
He will literally be a doctor.

Chris:
He’ll be more tenured than us, Anna. What are we going to do?

Anna:
Well, I mean he can prescribe us meds, that’d be great, I guess.

Chris:
Don’t say that.

Anna:
I mean, I’m assuming he’s going to do a psychiatry residency.

Chris:
Yeah, he’s not going to be that type of doctor, hopefully. He’ll be a very responsible one and hopefully we can steal him and make him an ex recovery coach forever.

Anna:
Yeah, or he’ll become just a super famous doctor and we’ll be like, remember that time when we were working with Tyler before he became a world famous doctor?

Chris:
Right, it’s like Dr. Oz is now Dr. Tyler Ramsey.

Anna:
He’ll be Dr. Tyler Ramsey.

Chris:
Right.

Anna:
I think that’s what’s going to happen.

Chris:
Good doctor name, if you’re being honest.

Anna:
Yeah, yeah.

Chris:
All right guys, that’s going to do it. Thanks for showing up and listening.

Anna:
Yes, thank you.

Chris:
Again, if you’re watching this on YouTube, sign up for coaching.

Anna:
Yes, please.

Chris:
Take care.

Anna:
Bye.

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7 thoughts on “What To Do If Your Ex Is Angry Or Mad At You”

  1. Avatar

    Guest

    February 12, 2021 at 2:08 am

    My ex bf was really angry before he blocked me he stated “he regrets being with me” “he wishes he never got with me” “the biggest mistake of his life is me” idk if he really meant it or just said it in order for me to leave him alone we was together over 3 years and we didnt cheat or anything he just gave up because of a heated argument and stated im a psycho because i am overprotective when he broke up with he said we were friends but i kept going on about getting back together and he blocked me then i got jealous and i annoyed him more about why hed rather not fix anything and go start over with someone else & he lashed out and said you pushed me away so much by begging its cringy & he said im blocking u forever but he still said take care i wonder if he’ll unblock me and reconsider or have guilt he hurt me that much because he’d never hurt me like that….. its been a couple of days now since ive been fully blocked off everything

  2. Avatar

    Sara

    February 5, 2021 at 6:35 pm

    I already completed my no contact (twice, because it was not feeling right during texting after the first no contact).
    I didn’t mean that he would always be silent when angry, I mean that he just wouldn’t show his anger. I would probably not even notice that he is angry, when we only have contact via text. Not knowing when he is angry, makes it difficult to deal with it.

    1. EBR Team Member: Shaunna

      EBR Team Member: Shaunna

      February 6, 2021 at 4:02 pm

      Hi Sara, if you are following the program then your conversations should not be focused around him being angry anyway, they need to be short positive conversations that get your ex interested in talking to you again.

  3. Avatar

    rita

    February 5, 2021 at 5:23 pm

    I think my ex unfollowed me on instagram and deleted my snapchat because im doing no contact… i still have a week left, ive been doing 30 days no contact, should i add time to the no contact or should i reach out after like normal

    1. EBR Team Member: Shaunna

      EBR Team Member: Shaunna

      February 6, 2021 at 4:03 pm

      Reach out as if you have not noticed

  4. Avatar

    Sara

    January 30, 2021 at 8:24 pm

    How do you handle silent anger? Knowing my ex, he wouldn’t show his anger. He wouldn’t be aggressive. But this doesn’t mean that he doesn’t get angry and anger is easy to hide when you’re just texting or something. This is the kind of anger that scares me a lot more. If he would show it, there is a way to respond to it, but I am afraid of this anger that would fester inside him and plays a part in his dicision making and his image of me. How can I influence that, whithout knowing it’s there or when it’s there?

    1. EBR Team Member: Shaunna

      EBR Team Member: Shaunna

      February 4, 2021 at 4:56 pm

      Hi Sara, you need to complete a 30 or 45 day no contact so by that time your ex should not be so angry that he needs to be silent. If he used to stonewall you in the relationship then this is not acceptable behavior. You need to continue your NC and then reach out with a text that Chris suggests after you have spent this time working on yourself.