A few weeks ago I had the opportunity to talk to our head coach, Anna Gonowon, about texting an ex and she told me this fantastic story about how she got her husband, who at one point was her ex, to drop everything and show up at her doorstep with a text.

The beauty of this was how she applied common strategies that we teach here at Ex Boyfriend Recovery. So, if you’ve ever wanted to learn,

Then this is the post for you!

Let’s begin.

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How To Make Your Ex Come Back Ahead Of Time

Chris Seiter:
All right, today we’re talking about how to keep an ex engaged in the texting phase. I brought my partner in crime, coach Anna, who is as always much more prepared for these than I am. I don’t know, part of me wants to let you take the lead on this one because you’re talking about conducting an internal review, an external review?

Anna:
Yeah.

Chris Seiter:
Could you maybe describe what you mean by that? And when I say describe to the viewer, what you mean by that, I’m saying describe to me what you mean by that?

Anna:
Well, when I mention do an internal review, first to do an external review. When we mentioned doing this last week, I immediately went to how do I tell my coaching clients to engage their exes, in any kind of conversation, doesn’t matter if it’s texting, or FaceTime, or on the phone, or virtually. If you’re gaming with one another or in person. You need to do a few things first. And in internal review, what I really mean is really reflect, first think about yourself. Think about what really keeps you engaged in a conversation, any conversation, and it doesn’t matter what the format is. Just sort of take note when you’re talking to people, what keeps you focused about the other, when you’re talking to another person? What do they say?

Anna:
So then think about with your ex, when you and your ex were getting along really well, or when you first met and started dating, just before you became exclusive. What did your ex say to greet you? What did your ex chat with you about? What did your ex bring up first? You want to look at your ex’s patterns and behaviors, and then flip them and use them on your ex. Because what does that do? That pulls the levers of retraction, specifically similarity and familiarity. All right, that’s pretty simple. Then you make a list of obviously to [inaudible 00:02:02] things that you knows your ex really like talking about, or seem interested in. Prioritize that list, one through five, one through 10. [inaudible 00:02:10] you literally have the topic of your first 10 texts.

Anna:
Then figure out what you were like, you specifically when your relationship was going well. And when you were first attracted to each other? Ask yourself like what were my characteristics? What was I like at that time? What was I doing? What was my life like, at that time? And also at that same time, what was my ex like? What were his or her activities? What was their life like at that time? Then you need to ask yourself about love languages. Like what are your exes love Languages? When you were together, how did you communicate love and how did you feel love? Did how you communicate love match up with how your ex felt loved? How did your ex communicate love? Did that match up with how you felt loved?

Anna:
If you can understand if they match or didn’t match, that could give you some insights as to why the breakup happened in the first place. And then you need to then ask yourself, are you attaching significance to a particular outcome? And I say this because I just had a conversation with one of my, a follow-up session with one of my coaching clients who was really frustrated about her ex’s responses. I found out what she was saying is if my ex does or says a particular thing, I feel loved and worthy. But even if he does respond, but doesn’t say this thing, I somehow don’t feel loved and I don’t feel worthy and I think it’s my fault. So you need to ask yourself, “Am I making my ex responsible for me feeling loved or happy or accepted?”

Anna:
Were you pushing your ex to communicate or behave in a certain way so that you felt better? So if you understand and say “Oh, I was putting a lot of pressure on my ex, or putting a lot of pressure on myself to always receive a certain outcome, when I should have been working on myself in deriving that sense of happiness and worth from within.” Does that make sense?

Chris Seiter:
Yeah, that makes total sense.

Anna:
And so you also [inaudible 00:04:24]. Yeah, go ahead.

Chris Seiter:
I was going to say, your follow up that you had today, it seems to me like that’s more of a question of feeling like you don’t have a very strong identity. And what I mean by that is, maybe your identity is so wrapped up into this other person that it’s truly like a roller coaster. Like they say something good to you, and you’re way too over the moon. And they don’t say that thing and you’re just super depressed. Do you think that is the specific issue in that specific case?

Anna:
Yes, but I think that’s the issue in a lot of cases, because I even experience this when I was going through this program twice to get exes back.

Chris Seiter:
I think we all do.

Anna:
Yeah, but we all do. But what is that? It’s because we attach particular outcome, we put a lot of meaning onto that. If it doesn’t happen in this way, I feel like I failed. And that is not what’s happened. We can only control 50% of the equation. So that’s why the next portion I was going to bring up about your internal review. Like understanding what your attitude is towards communicating with your ex. You have to understand how attached you are to a very particular outcome. My client, and a lot of the clients have been talking to me in the past weeks, my follow-up clients seem to all struggle with this idea of, “Well, my ex has responded, but…” So instead of being happy that their ex responded, they’re fixated that their ex didn’t respond in a particular way, when they should just be happy their ex responded. Does it make sense?

Chris Seiter:
Yeah.

Anna:
So you have to understand your level of attachment to a very particular outcome. You have to understand that you can send out the perfect text, and your ex could still choose to not respond. That does not mean that you are a failure and it doesn’t mean that your ex doesn’t care about you. All it means is, for whatever reason, your ex didn’t feel like responding at that time, or well maybe was in a bad mood and so just wasn’t as engaged in the text. But you have to be really strong in what you can control and directly impact including the truth that you cannot control your ex. So if the question is, how do I engage my ex more, ask yourself, is it I need more engagement from my ex? Like I need for him or her to respond more? So does that mean that I’m just not happy with their responses? Like my ex is responding, but not as much as he or she used to when we were together?

Anna:
Well, one, you’re not together. So you’re going to have to be happy with what you get. Now, if your ex isn’t responding at all, we in ERP start to get worried if you’re getting complete non responses from the beginning. Like you send out your text and your ex doesn’t respond at all. If that happens three times in a row, that’s when we get a little worried. But normally exes respond in our experience, within three texts.

Chris Seiter:
Yeah, I would also say, there’s the whole topic of keeping an ex engaged in texting is really nuanced and situational. So the situation we’re talking about right here is like almost like a first contact text, like the first thing that you send to your ex to get back in contact with them after a no contact rule that at least I’ve noticed, I’m kind of curious to get your thoughts on this. Getting an ex to respond to that specific text usually boils down to a few strategical missteps that you make, like you’re not texting the right way, or your text isn’t very interesting or doesn’t hit any of those similarity aspects that we talked in those 11 factors of love. Then there’s the other situation, which is like you are getting responses from your ex, you just don’t think they’re meaningful or they’re authentic.

Chris Seiter:
Like maybe there’s like short responses. So I would almost assume like the what do you see more of question was in your coaching sessions, Anna? Is it more of like, “Oh, I’m trying to get a respond after no contact?” Or is it more of like, once you’re contacting them, how do I keep them engaged and keep the thing, the rapport building?

Anna:
It’s the second. People get really anxious about, yeah, my ex is well, I mean, because after our initial session with me, you normally you get a game plan, right? And we talk a lot about how to construct texts that have a lot of materials about what to text and how and lots of materials, so you can understand open ended questions and all that other stuff. So structurally, people tend to be, my coaching clients tend to be sending out really good texts. It’s what do I do after that? Like how do I know? I think it’s basically the question of, “Anna, how do I know I’m doing well?” And the answer is, you’re doing well because you’re getting responses. Over time, this is where you need to track your texts. And people can get really like obsessive about it and retentive. But at the end, you just want to look at two things, really, word count and response time.

Anna:
You can also track topic, like the things you talked about if you want. But if you understand these three things at least, it tells you a lot. You can say and it goes into the external review, because there are four elements of texting. All right, and the four elements of texts are the type of conversation or interaction that you’re having, the topic that you’re using. The high interests of your access. The timing of it in particular, like when are you sending the text? How much space are you putting in between texts? How long are you taking to respond to anything that your ex replies to? And then what tone? So a lot of people seem to fixate on topic, but then they forget that there are other elements we need to look at as well.

Anna:
So if you’re tracking word count and response time and topic, you can see, “Uh, when I send it in the afternoon, which is what I think he or she is going home from work, I notice that my ex doesn’t respond until later in that evening,” And because they’re tired, because you know them, because they’re tired that’s probably why their word count is pretty low. But if I send it right before lunch, I’m just giving an example, I seem to get much more like a higher engagement, meaning a higher word count, and they’re responding faster, so I actually have a conversation. These are the kinds of things you want to look for. And over time, you know you’re doing well, if you’re tracking it, and you generally see a trend upward for word count on your ex’s heart, and a trend downward for response time, meaning your ex is responding faster and faster over time.

Anna:
So if we graph those, you know I love data, generally speaking, your progress with your ex will never be like a straight line, like upwards. It will never be like that. It almost always, I’ve only seen a couple of instances where it wasn’t this way. I would say like 95% of them have been like this. It’s like a wave but it’s at an angle. So ends up looking like this. This, this, this. So you want to have enough texts, I would say at least 10 or 15 over time, to be able to say the low point that I just experienced is actually higher than the high point from when I first started.

Chris Seiter:
True. Yeah, I mean, in a way this really resonates with me, because I’ve been putting a lot of effort into the YouTube channel, right where this interview is going to be going up. You can always tell the good months are having that wavy line upwards. The best way to look at it is like you said, “Are the lows higher than the lows at their lowest have been?” So that’s overall. And anyone who thinks success with exes is linear is in for a rude awakening. I actually just interviewed a success story today. I don’t know if, I didn’t ask her if she coached with you. She probably I don’t think she did, but her name is Harly. She just got engaged to her ex.

Anna:
Is that her actual name?

Chris Seiter:
Yeah, her name is Harly. H-A-R-L-Y

Anna:
Yeah, she’s not, I would have remembered because that would have made me think of Harly [crosstalk 00:13:10].

Chris Seiter:
Right. I didn’t I wanted to say that to her, but I was like, [inaudible 00:13:16].

Anna:
You probably [crosstalk 00:13:16].

Chris Seiter:
Right. Yeah. But she’s engaged. And what was interesting is there was a lot of that up and down like in talk. So it’s not a linear thing, though she was able to recognize-

Anna:
Actually, I did coach a person named Harly.

Chris Seiter:
You did?

Anna:
Yes.

Chris Seiter:
Maybe it was the same one. A girl or a guy?

Anna:
Girl, living in London.

Chris Seiter:
No, no, no, this is definitely US.

Anna:
Okay, then. Okay. My Harly was in London.

Chris Seiter:
My Harly was different than your Harly.

Anna:
I was hoping I could take credit but never mind. Don’t worry.

Chris Seiter:
But yeah, I mean, to Anna’s point, the success curve of her situation was not linear. In fact, if you look at our no contact rule, which I know is a little off topic from texting, her no contact rule had blips where there’d be long periods of time where he wouldn’t like text her at all. And then he would texture like real frantically and then not text her at all again. So texting is the same way just if you’re looking at those four dimensions, which I would say that the least important one is the topic. I mean, you get a lot of data from response time and word count. I mean, truly, those will tell you a lot but I won’t even say for me what matters more is the word count and the response time. What about you? What like where’s your hierarchy with those four?

Anna:
Well, okay, people think a lot about, people think, “Oh my gosh, my ex hasn’t initiated in like three texts.” I’m like, okay. Who initiates honestly does not matter. It really does not matter. You know where initiation matters to your ego, to your own sense pride.

Chris Seiter:
I’m stealing that. I literally just did a video today, like I’m filming so many videos, it’s got me like they’re all blending together now. I’m trying to like one video a day.

Anna:
Oh God, bless you.

Chris Seiter:
And I was talking about this where I was like, “Hey, what matters isn’t who starts the conversation is who ends the conversation.”

Anna:
Yes, correct.

Chris Seiter:
I mean, ego thing is so juicy, I’m stealing that it’s such a good statement.

Anna:
I say that all the time to my coaching clients. Who initiates is actually all about your own pride and your own ego. Sorry to say that, I’m not trying to be mean, but it is your pride that’s saying that. What matters is that you exit first because you want to trigger, what? The Zeigarnik effect. And even more important than triggering, although the Zeigarnik effect is important, I would say it’s third to, honestly, word count is first then I would say response time is a close second, with Zeigarnik effect as a close third and then initiation like number 32.

Chris Seiter:
Love it. Do you want to hear an interesting story about where I first heard about the Zeigarnik effect?

Anna:
Yes, I would like to know, because I think it’s fantastic. I don’t think enough people in our ERP group.

Chris Seiter:
This is [crosstalk 00:16:28].

Anna:
I have to talk about all the time in the-

Chris Seiter:
In coaching calls?

Anna:
In coaching calls. Yeah.

Chris Seiter:
Well, it’s really relevant to what we’re talking about, keeping exes engaged, because you almost noticed, like the snowball effect, if you’re able to pull it off consistently, then you’ll notice your ex start to reach out to you first, then there’ll be a lot more engaged in conversations, because they’ll be like, “Is she going to leave?” But I was taking a marketing class, because I was trying to understand how do I market Ex Boyfriend Recovery better? I’d written like, how to get your ex boy. I’ve written a few articles for the website that had gained some traction. I was spending five hours a day, answering people’s comments free of charge. I would literally be like, “I need to start trying to make money from this business.” So it was like, how do I do that? Well, I’m going to take a course.

Chris Seiter:
So I bought a course on how to properly send emails to someone to get them to buy. And in there, they talked about the Zeigarnik effect. So the whole theory of the email thing was you tell a story through emails. So like you got 10 emails and you end each email at a cliffhanger so that they’re going to show up the next day when the next email hits your [inaudible 00:17:35] inbox, and it gets hooked. And I was like, “Wait, this has a lot of applications to talking to people through text.” And then I started researching getting found Bluma Zeigarnik, a Russian psychologist is the one who founded it after she noticed waiters remembering uncompleted orders better than the completed orders or something like that. I forgot the origin story, I just know the psychological definition. But yeah, that’s that’s how I came across it.

Anna:
Yeah. And then remember when I got my ex back, how I use Zeigarnik effect on our microscale?

Chris Seiter:
I remember interviewing you and so this is kind of a fun trip down memory lane. Because what I remember from your interview was like the whole thing culminated in the item exchange something for your dad, right? [inaudible 00:18:28].

Anna:
Yeah. I mean, I flew across the country to get my dad’s stuff and my stuff.

Chris Seiter:
Well, it was like important stuff, too. Right?

Anna:
Yeah. I mean, this was…

Chris Seiter:
It’s like his visa card or like his green card or something like that.

Anna:
Some of the personal documents because all his stuff, like some of his most important stuff had basically burned in a fire.

Chris Seiter:
I don’t remember that part, but yeah.

Anna:
I mean, and that building had had burned down and so there are no copies of it. So if I didn’t get that stuff, I would be up [inaudible 00:19:02] a creek without a paddle.

Chris Seiter:
So I remember he told the story of like, okay, there’s this item exchange, and then you had your ex, like you talk to him in a room, like one room of the house and then you move to the different room and he’d follow you, and then you move to a different room and he’d follow you. And you said you did this for two reasons. Number one, you wanted like some game theory aspect. Number two is you want to see your butt as you walk from room to room.

Anna:
Yeah.

Chris Seiter:
That is what I remember the most about your success stories. [inaudible 00:19:32].

Anna:
Right. Because I would switch the topic of the conversation each time we left a room, because what I was trying to [crosstalk 00:19:41].

Chris Seiter:
That’s important point that I missed.

Anna:
I was trying to trigger the Zeigarnik effect. As we left a room, the conversation would switch so it would be completely new and he would want to finish the first one. It was mini Zeigarnik effect.

Chris Seiter:
That’s beautiful. I almost dropped enough bomb. I was like, Oh my God, why didn’t I, I have to go rewatch that interview I completely [crosstalk 00:20:09].

Anna:
It was the mini Zeigarnik effect but I was also trying to do cognitive dissonance, which is by, we’re here exchanging stuff, right? So emotionally it’s really difficult but there’s also at another level, we’re actually getting along so we’re having great conversations. So cognitive dissonance is where one thing is happening, but another thing is happening emotionally. [inaudible 00:20:38] we’re getting along.

Chris Seiter:
It’s almost like an external versus an internal difference.

Anna:
Yeah. Like externally, we’re getting along just fine and he’s being attracted to me. But internally, he’s torn because this probably the last time he’s going to see me. And I’m leading him from [crosstalk 00:20:54].

Chris Seiter:
Kind of evil though, I still admit that that’s so genius. I don’t know how to say it other than that.

Anna:
Well, I got him back and [inaudible 00:21:04] that.

Chris Seiter:
And then you found someone better.

Anna:
I did find someone better, like in the person they’re married to now. But talking about the Zeigarnik effect, I have a small story that I actually never shared until just now, like one of those [inaudible 00:21:18].

Chris Seiter:
I’m so excited.

Anna:
Whereas another version of Zeigarnik effect. All right. So in part of getting him back in, we’re now together. So I had come into town, his town to hang out with friends. And we had kind of seen each other off and on throughout that time. But I was there for a purpose, which is to show him I would come into town and not tell him and I want him to understand that I was not chasing him and that he was… I was trying to employ moving on without moving on, which is, “You are not my priority and so I’m going to do what I want. And so maybe I’ll tell you, maybe I won’t.”

Anna:
So he knew I was in town and we were supposed to have lunch before I left. So at the last minute I told, so he was expecting that we’re going to have lunch just before I went out of town. And I told him like, last minute, “I’m not going to see you. I want to see you but I think I don’t want to see you so I’m going to err on the side of caution and not see you.” That’s basically what I told him.

Chris Seiter:
Is that how you said it though?

Anna:
Yeah. I said, “I’m torn about seeing you. I think it’d be better for me to not see you before I leave.

Chris Seiter:
Because your ex is at this point. I’m just dissecting, you come to town and you tell him and I quote…

Anna:
I don’t tell him that I’m in town, he finds out through mutual friends that I’m [crosstalk 00:22:49].

Chris Seiter:
So he finds out, and then how do you…

Anna:
Then he tells me, “Oh, I didn’t know you were in town.” I said, “Yeah, I’m in town.” And then [crosstalk 00:22:57] he said, “Do you want to hang out?” I was like, “No, because I’m busy.” And then I said, “Well, I am going to dinner with this person, maybe you can come but you need to ask him.”

Chris Seiter:
That’s pretty good.

Anna:
I’m pretty good. I am pretty good in general. So anyway, we see each other off and on because he tags along with friends, dinner with friends. But then during one he had reached out to text me saying, “When are you leaving?” And I said, “I’m leaving on this day?” And he said, “Do you have time?” I’m like, “Why?” He said, “Well, I want to have lunch with you. I want to spend time with you alone before you go because we haven’t, everything’s been in a group setting.” I said sure. And then I said yes with the intention I was going to tell him no at the last minute, Zeigarnik effect. The Zeigarnik effect in a big way. So I told him, “Hey, I know that we’re supposed to have lunch.” Because he’s like, yeah, because he texted me that early morning.

Anna:
He said, “I’m excited to have lunch. Where do you want to go? I think blah, blah, blah.” And then I said, “Yes.” And then I was like, okay, in an hour or two, I’m going to tell him, no. So then I texted him in an hour to say, “I want to meet you for lunch, but I think it’s better for me emotionally to not see you, so I’m not going to see, I’m going to just leave.” He’s like, “No, I want to see you.” And I said, “No, I prefer not. It’s okay. I’ll see you another time when I’m back in town.” And he knew where I was staying. He said, “Well, let me help you with your luggage.” I’m like, “No, it’s okay. I got it. I’m totally fine. I’m going to go. I’m just going to get my car and go. We’ll have lunch another time.” He lived, I think, like 15, 20 minutes away. He was literally like, at the place where I staying within 10 minutes.

Anna:
He’s like, I said, “What are you doing here?” And he said, “I didn’t want you to leave. I need to see you before you left.” It’s like, really. I was like, I was just really trying to get out of here like I don’t… He’s like, “Let me take your luggage down.” So it was a failed version of the Zeigarnik effect. But look what it did, this whole idea of him not getting to see me when he expected to, the thing that he expected to finish was going to be left unfinished. And what did it do? It caused him to possibly get a speeding ticket to see me before I left.

Chris Seiter:
Man, that is a great story. Because the way I’m just listening, it’s you weaponized the Zeigarnik effect in a way that I’ve never quite seen that. But to me, it’s just like you played with his emotions. You had him go through that roller coaster where he’s expecting one thing and then it gets ripped out from under him. And then you have a legitimate reason for why like, I don’t know if I can [inaudible 00:25:54]

Anna:
I mean, it’s true. It was true though. I was like, I don’t know if it could really [crosstalk 00:26:01].

Chris Seiter:
But was is really true? I mean, there had to be a hint of it not being true.

Anna:
I mean, this is going to be recorded, he’s going to hear it. So but I mean…

Chris Seiter:
Okay, sorry.

Anna:
Okay. I’ll be truthful.

Chris Seiter:
[inaudible 00:26:12].

Anna:
I mean, no, I’ll tell him anyway about that. But the answer was yes, I wanted to pull the rug out from under him.

Chris Seiter:
I think that’s just such a unique way of, the other thing, while you’re telling your story that that came to mind is, I noticed one of the reasons why I think you got such good results… Such good results, it’s not even proper grammar. Why you got so good results was, you’re not afraid to take really big risks. Because I think like let’s use, we’ll use the story you just told. I personally don’t think a lot of people will take the risk of being like, “Yeah, I don’t want to see you,” because I think they’re too desperate to see an ex. And then once they’ve got the sort of the date secured, they’re like, I’m not doing anything like, this is my moment to get them back. This is my moment to have a meaningful moment with them. You kind of were like, yeah, whatever.

Anna:
Well, I mean, if you were talking to me at that time, I mean, I was talking to my battle buddy. I think you interviewed her, the fellow gamer, right?

Chris Seiter:
[crosstalk 00:27:31].

Anna:
So I was talking to her at that time and I remember and she was like, I was like, “I don’t know. I’m torn. I want to see him. I don’t want to see him.” And she said, “You should see him.” And I’m like, “I don’t want to see him.” She said, “Okay, then don’t see him.” Like she said, “Actually, it’s probably better to not see him.” Because I said, I don’t really don’t know if I can keep it together. And I said, if I’m going to interact with him, I want to make sure that I’m going to keep it together. And I’d rather risk not seeing him than seeing him and being a mess. To me, it was worth it to not see him. Because I was like you know honestly, I’m going to see him again.

Anna:
I’m not worried about not seeing him again. I’m actually not worried about not getting an opportunity to talk to him again. So I would rather take that risk and not see him. And it probably would work in my favor more if I don’t see him because he’s expecting to see me. But it took a lot of thinking to get to that place. I genuinely was surprised that he got there before I left.

Chris Seiter:
It must have been hauling [inaudible 00:28:39], really drove fast.

Anna:
Yeah. Which is very funny, because generally speaking I drive a lot faster than him.

Chris Seiter:
Anna, I think there’s something kind of powerful. You think three dimensionally and I think people think two dimensionally. They think very linearly when it comes to the Zeigarnik effect, myself included, I always thought of it’s like, oh, yeah, just had a conversation. And then you found all these really interesting ways to employ it that I think is really powerful. But it also takes a little bit of a paradigm shift to think of it that way. So I don’t think you’re giving yourself enough credit, I think that’s brilliant. You’re just making me think now is like, wait, I need to start rethinking how you can employ this with text messages.

Anna:
I mean, the way we did with text message is pretty straightforward, but you can [crosstalk 00:29:39]-

Chris Seiter:
It is, yeah.

Anna:
… any other ways. There are many, many, many ways to employ the Zeigarnik effect in all kinds of interactions that we do like what your wife Jen used to do when she would accidentally hang up, that.

Chris Seiter:
To this day she’s never copped to it. And to her credit, she had a legitimate old phone that would always die. I do see it happen now where she’ll be talking to our mom or something on the phone, and it’ll just die and she just won’t call back. But this is, you also have to remember, we were talking every single day for like two hours straight. And she did it on purpose. I’m almost certain she just tried to keep that mysterious aspect of now that we’re married, it’s like, there’s not many secrets left except that one. She’s never copped to it, but I’m a dumb, I know the game.

Anna:
But you know, what I tried to tell a lot of my coaching clients because I know we’re talking about how to keep your ex engaged while texting, but you need to have this mindset. When interacting with your ex, it doesn’t matter if it’s texting, in every interaction you have with your ex, you have control over a lot. You have control over what you say, when you say it, how you say it. How long too risky, how long you wait till you respond. Whether you’ll respond to their response, there’s a lot that you control. You also control when you enter and when you exit.

Anna:
Own every single piece that you can add as creatively as you can and you’ll see that you actually are much more powerful in getting in this process of trying to get your ex back than you thought. If you hinge your belief of success on whether or not your ex responds in a particular way, if you notice, I didn’t care in that instance what his response was. I was determined to do a certain thing. Right?

Chris Seiter:
Right.

Anna:
Not expect him to come racing over. I did expect him to be challenged and to be somewhat upset that the plants we made fell through.

Chris Seiter:
Right. [crosstalk 00:31:57] so upset he came running in [inaudible 00:31:59].

Anna:
Yeah, but I expected him to be upset by that and that did not upset me.

Chris Seiter:
You’re just really, I don’t know if it’s because you’re like a superstar Duke University person. But you just the way you look at it is so different than the way I would have looked at it. And your way was so much better. I think the fact that you’re able to employ the Zeigarnik effect in these really unique cognitive dissonance ways, I suppose, is something that if you can grasp, I think for anyone listening, if you can grasp the way she’s talking about and look at the world through her lens when it comes to breakups, I think you’ll get better results in keeping exes engaged not only in texting, but in all these other facets.

Chris Seiter:
It’s just such a unique way. I guess I’d never considered looking at the Zeigarnik effect from a from like a, even going back to the first one where you’re going room to room, which I do remember you explain to the room to room thing, but I don’t know why I didn’t quite grasp the Zeigarnik effect aspect to it, like how you’re changing the topic on every single room? To me, that’s such a unique way to employ it, execute it. I don’t know, I guess I’m just in awe a little better my mind’s been blown.

Anna:
I mean, this is something that I tried to get a lot of my client coaching clients to understand. In addition to the power that you have, are you and this goes back to the research we talked about last week. What are you doing to trigger nostalgia, longing and yearning in every single interaction you have with your ex. You want to lift the switch on regarding the hardwiring, that you established in your relationship about you, the positive hardwiring anyway. Have you appropriately incorporated flirting at all levels in all the ways that are possible? Right, because we have as we talked about in the group, one of our moderators to Facebook Lives on this which is the different levels of flirting and the different types of flirting that utilize the 11 levers of re-attraction.

Chris Seiter:
We also did, you and I did an interview on the YouTube channel about flirting. Probably not as in depth as those Facebook Lives but those Facebook Lives are only available for people who are [crosstalk 00:34:40].

Anna:
Are [inaudible 00:34:41].

Chris Seiter:
though just get the program, things like that but if you wanted kind of a little bit of a break primer of flirting and how to do it properly, [crosstalk 00:34:49], yeah, watch our interview.

Anna:
Yeah. And then you also need to think about the kinds of conversations you’re having with your ex. Some people who sometimes feel stuck in texting, for example, it’s because you’re having the same conversation over and over and over, even though the topic may be different, your basically like asking advice every single time. There are many different kind, there are both high levels of interaction, and low levels of interaction. So high levels of interaction are direct, they are also very social. So they’re direct, and they require your ex and you to invest time or energy to engage with one another. From a social aspect, you can also like group chats, for example, or at parties, or when you’re interacting with the sphere of influence. These are high levels of interaction, and they can be advice ones or Benjamin Franklin effect ones or Damsel in distress ones, right?

Anna:
They can be intellectual or thoughtful conversations, work, politics, religion, social issues, family. They can be funny. They can be games. I find that a lot of my clients who get stuck are often stuck on the same kind of high level of an interaction in sort of text. So you need to always switch it up. Now, you need to switch it up between high and low. And you and I kind of start talking about low investment texts, because of COVID. They tend to be indirect, and they don’t require a lot of investment to engage. They’re pretty passive. So for example, the high level closed ended question of how are you? Is a low investment text, a meme, a GIF, the TikTok, YouTube video, the Tweet. Even social media itself, when we’re putting posts and stories out, these are low interactions.

Anna:
They don’t take a whole lot of thought to interact and put out there, although we are, specifically when it comes to social media, we’re being very thoughtful, right? But you have to look at, how am I interacting with my ex? Am I just doing it only in the same way over and over and over again? Most likely that’s the first place we need to look at when you’re stuck. Right?

Chris Seiter:
Yeah.

Anna:
Yeah, you have to constantly be pretty creative. How am I interacting with my ex? And is it creative enough? And how attached to my to this particular outcome? Sometimes some exes are stubborn and just need time.

Chris Seiter:
That’s true. Yeah, and the only thing I would add on which is sort of going off topic a little bit, but not really. I wrote this last week. I spent most of my writing time writing the 16,000 word article on texting. One of the things that I entered in there was the question of authenticity, which is we talked a bit about today, but it’s oftentimes like how do you know your ex is actually authentically kind of engaged versus just responding to be nice. And my go to on that is always try to see, like take note of what they say and then after time goes by see if their actions match up with what they say. And that will tell you if it’s authentic. And it’s not a perfect way, I would say because you have to wait time. But if you’re sitting there and wondering like how do I know if my ex is being authentic? I think that’s probably the first place I would start, unless you have something better you can think of like to help quickly diagnose it.

Anna:
I mean, I’ll just say this. And this is based on the difference [inaudible 00:38:30] behavior studies that I’ve read, all right. Men, generally speaking are far less likely to be responding to you just to be nice. Men, if they want to talk to you, they’ll talk to you. It’s women that you have to be worried about.

Chris Seiter:
It’s funny, we must read the same study because I was trying to find something the beef the article up, and it had kind of like, women being the ones who were… Yeah, I think even the study went on to say like women are a little bit more likely to be try to retain a relationship with their ex after the breakup whereas men are kind of like more of they want to clean cut.

Anna:
Yeah, either were involved or we’re not.

Chris Seiter:
Yeah, I would say as a male, I would say I definitely agree with the male side of things. That’s why I think there’s also so many more women searching online for breakup advice, because it is a little bit more of a difficult hurdle to potentially overcome.

Anna:
A lot of my male clients are often baffled because they like it’s tougher because I’m just speaking as a woman, I have in the past spoken to someone just to be nice. Yeah, I mean, women are almost socialized from birth to be nice. All right, so it’s a lot more difficult if your ex is female to discern whether or not your ex is being nice or whether she’s being genuine. So to determine if a woman is being genuine in her responses to you, you want to look at word count. All right. And you should know her pretty well. You know when she’s being dismissive, and you know when she’s just being nice, as opposed to being really engaged. Some women when they’re being dismissive, and they’re uncomfortable saying, I don’t know or I don’t want to talk to you. They’ll say, “Hahaha,” and then not really respond to anything that you’ve written.

Chris Seiter:
Well, I mean, that would be the also that words and actions thing in practice, like hahaha, is indicating, like, oh, you think it’s funny, but if they don’t respond at all, they didn’t think was funny. Yeah.

Anna:
Yeah.

Chris Seiter:
But I guess it also gets complicated because some men even read that as like, “Oh, she’s playing hard to get.” They chase more something like that, which just kind of shows how men are stupid but that’s another [inaudible 00:41:07].

Anna:
Yeah, if a woman she’s less likely to be playing hard to get and just really uncomfortable and doesn’t know how to say no.

Chris Seiter:
Yeah, I also think you need to consider the fact that it’s a lot more likely that an ex is going to play hard to get. I mean it’s your ex.

Anna:
It’s less likely for a guy to be playing hard to get. And again, if your ex is talking to you, even if for you, it feels like he’s not talking a lot, the fact that he’s talking to you means he wants to talk to you. If he didn’t want to talk to you, he would not respond at all.

Chris Seiter:
So Anna and I’s verdict is be happy with the responses you get.

Anna:
Yeah. Be happy with that.

Chris Seiter:
The real underrated thing, I guess to end this podcast episode that I took the most from this was the same you said at the beginning that we didn’t even talk about which is like, look, you control 50% of the equation. Make sure you control every bit of that 50% not 30%, control every bit of that sucker and good things will happen.

Anna:
Yeah, correct.

Chris Seiter:
So how does one coach with someone such as yourself?

Anna:
What? Well, one, if you have never coached with me before, you can go always to the website and select me and that’d be great. We’ll have a good time. Have a great conversation, come up with a game plan. You’ll get a link to download the recording of our session. I promise I will give you a lot of homework and we’ll laugh, we may cry, but we will definitely answer all of your questions.

Chris Seiter:
It is great. She gave me a coaching session before we started. I was telling her before we started, I was like, Yeah, I’ve been really anxious and stressed this week. And I was just like, pouring everything out and she’s like, yeah. She went into coach mode, I could tell and I was like, “Just give me the coaching.” So it’s great.

Anna:
Well, I just did come out of a three day workshop on authenticity. So for my own coaching certification, so you got [crosstalk 00:43:19]-

Chris Seiter:
Well, there you go.

Anna:
… [inaudible 00:43:21] off the presses.

Chris Seiter:
Right. So I got the I got the top feedback from Anna, but I can vouch for her, she’s a great coach. She gave me coaching before we started here and I feel like a million bucks.

Anna:
I mean, when I finally get my full, like master level certification, there’s just not very many people [crosstalk 00:43:42].

Chris Seiter:
Let’s talk about that before we hang up here. Anna is crazy. So what I say a bit crazy I she’s…

Anna:
I am.

Chris Seiter:
You’re the mid level right of the ICF?

Anna:
Yes, [crosstalk 00:43:56]

Chris Seiter:
All right, so she’s trying to become one of only how many people in the…

Anna:
1300. At this time, there’s 1349.

Chris Seiter:
Okay, so she’s trying to become number 1350 Master coach in the entire world of the… That’s the International Coaching Federation, for those of you who don’t know. So that’s who we have helping coach you. And yeah, I can’t say enough nice things about her. Every single time we do one of these podcast episodes on Tuesday, it’s always such a fun conversation. I always feel like it’s like I created the thing, and I’m always learning from you. So that’s a good sign.

Anna:
Well, that means I mean, I always learn a lot whenever you and I talk, so it’s mutual.

Chris Seiter:
Yeah, that’s true, I guess, but not not… I think it’s it’s a bit of a descriptor. It’s like the 80, 20 rule like 80% you, 20% me.

Anna:
I do not think is like that. I really do think [crosstalk 00:44:52].

Chris Seiter:
Stop being modest Anna. You’re a bonafide badass. Lets just [inaudible 00:44:56].

Anna:
So are you, we are both badasses, this is why we’re friends. But I will do a vlog at least for my coaching program because it is the only accredited International Coaching Federation training program that focuses on authenticity. I think that’s something that a lot of us really need to talk about, especially when we’re trying to get an ex back. Because there’s so much out there in the ex recovery space that can feel manipulative. So something that I want all my coaching clients and even if we don’t coach, like if you’re in the Facebook group to understand, we don’t want you ever to lie or be dishonest. We want you to be truthful, and completely embrace everything about yourself, and bring that in your interactions with your ex, because that is interpreted as confidence and confidence is incredibly attractive.

Chris Seiter:
That’s true. I’m glad you brought up the… I mean, we’re kind of in this controversial niche if you think about like the breakup niche. Most people don’t want to get exes back together. And unfortunately, we are populated by quite a bit of I don’t want to say scammers but people who… Well, they care a lot about getting their money and giving you have value in return. I’m not going to say they don’t give you value, because I’m sure some of them do. But one thing that’s been my rallying cry with Ex Boyfriend Recovery ever since I started is I want to go above and beyond with value. So I can honestly say Anna is probably the best coach right now in the entire world with regards to not only authenticity, but making you feel. All right, so like I said, this is me being real with everyone listening or watching.

Chris Seiter:
Most of the people in this industry, I don’t want to say they take advantage of brokenhearted individuals, but I do feel like there’s a bit of that going on. And for me, I don’t have a problem with marketing. So a lot of times people have an issue being marketed to I don’t have such a problem with that. But I have a problem with is if you heavily market and get a sale, make sure you’re doing everything you can to ensure that person feels like they got maximum value out of that. One of the things I can honestly say about Anna is she’s going to give you maximum value in a coaching session. So I try to always give you maximum value with digital products and things like that. Anna is going to be the person who goes so far above and beyond in the coaching, it’s astounding to me and she should feel incredibly proud of herself for what she has done to propel Ex Boyfriend Recovery’s image. Because I am aware of the fact that we are in this controversial niche.

Anna:
Sorry about my cats.

Chris Seiter:
That’s okay. I love the cat just running by. I’m like giving this like really passionate [crosstalk 00:48:03].

Anna:
I know, and then all of a sudden I’m trying to keep a straight face because my cat [inaudible 00:48:07] like, oh, gosh, I don’t know if you can edit that out. Sorry.

Chris Seiter:
We got to keep it in, we’re authentic here.

Anna:
We are. Anna has a cat [inaudible 00:48:18].

Chris Seiter:
That’s true. But here’s my point. If you guys want someone who’s just going to help you with the best possible outcome with your life, whether that’s getting your ex back or helping you get over your ex, Anna is the person for you. I honestly believe there’s no one better in the world right now, that’s including myself.

Anna:
What?

Chris Seiter:
Yeah, you coach [crosstalk 00:48:43] so you’re a lot more practice. Yeah, that’s pretty high praise.

Anna:
That’s my praise. I mean, I just and there’s a reason why I came to ERP, when I myself was heartbroken. You cited correctly research from someone that I work with.

Chris Seiter:
Dan Ariely, Misattribution of Emotions.

Anna:
Yeah. And he was my professor when I was getting my MBA, so it’s just, I knew there’s something about this program that was really different from the others. To me the program has really grown into something that’s about authenticity that is based in science and facts. And we’re also just in the Facebook community in general is just, I think, kind and welcoming and we try our best to be honest and plain spoken with each other. It’s a really unique community.

Chris Seiter:
Yeah, I will say one thing about the Facebook community is Anna and I, I think are very protective. So sometimes there are people in there, we have to protect others, like there’s some negative people in there. And we are afraid to get rid of them and give them their money back, because they’re just not a fit for what we’re trying to create. And sometimes that hurts people’s feelings but in my mind, we’re always trying to protect the integrity of the group and make sure that there’s no arguments or fights or name calling or I mean, some people have said some [crosstalk 00:50:17] things in there.

Anna:
It needs to be a very safe place emotionally, and it is a very emotionally safe place. It is also a place where you will not always hear the things you want to hear. But people say it out of love and kindness because they want you to be your best and achieve what you can. And it’s just a really beautiful group that also protects each other’s privacy and confidentiality. Because heartbreak is not easy and a lot of people not so much myself, because that’s open, you can see that, that I’m in the group, but a lot of people don’t want it to be known that they’re in a relationship recovery group. And so we protect each one another, we protect, we make it private, we make it confidential, and whatever you say in the group stays within the group, so I’m really proud of that.

Chris Seiter:
We’ve come a long way from when we first started I’ll tell you that.

Anna:
Yeah. I mean, we were really small at the start.

Chris Seiter:
Yeah, we’re still, well, what do we have 5000 now?

Anna:
We’re almost 6000.

Chris Seiter:
I accept people every single day and I don’t even know. I’m just like, did this person okay, this, this.

Anna:
[crosstalk 00:51:34].

Chris Seiter:
We’re getting a lot of fake requests, I don’t know if you notice that. I think they’re bots. But yeah, I personally add people into the group every single day to ensure that they are someone who’s bought the program or done a coaching session. I think you can get access by buying the ungettable book. There’s really three entry points to the group. So I want to make sure that everyone knows like, that’s how we’re real strict about the entry points to the [inaudible 00:52:06]. But yeah, anyways, coaching with Anna is a very easy, go to the website, click on coaching, sign up for coaching. That’s it.

Anna:
I mean, I’m going to be the only master level coach in the relationship recovery space, that has been trained specifically through an authenticity program.

Chris Seiter:
[inaudible 00:52:29] 1300 in the entire world [inaudible 00:52:32]. The only one in probably the entire breakup space, and probably even the relationship space?

Anna:
Definitely at the master and authenticity level. Yeah.

Chris Seiter:
There we go. We get you quality. But thanks for listening everyone, and showing up.

Anna:
Thank you guys. [crosstalk 00:52:51].

Chris Seiter:
We’ll see you next week, whatever we…

Anna:
Yeah, what are we talking about next week?

Chris Seiter:
Want to talk about it? I don’t know.

Anna:
I mean, it depends on how we’re both feeling right? Because I know you’ve been running really hard, because you can be taking a little bit of time off.

Chris Seiter:
Yeah. I want to say something like changing it up and maybe like the sides, an ex wants you back or something like that.

Anna:
We can do that.

Chris Seiter:
It’s super easy.

Anna:
Yeah. Let’s do this. How do we know your an ex wants you back?

Chris Seiter:
Yeah, let’s do that. How do you know an ex wants you back? There you go everyone.

Anna:
But create a document on this so that I’m not because I’m constantly asking Chris like, what are we talking about then I forgot.

Chris Seiter:
So that’ll do it for today. See you guys next time.

Anna:
See you.

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